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I'm sure this happens, but I think most people who move out of state don't come back. Most are people with moderate incomes who can't afford to move back even if they want to. California's slower population growth rate over the last 2 decades backs this up.
I personally know quite a few who have moved away only to return after a number of years. Some have returned as shortly as a year while others haven't returned 'home' until after their kids have grown and moved out of the house. Not affording to live here is really relative to *where* in CA they move back to. CA is a huge state with a wide range of home prices. For example my FIL moved back to CA after living in CO. He retired to Santa Maria which is pretty afforadable and much closer to his family. He and his wife are much happier to be out of the snow and cold after ~ 6 years in CO. They are both CA natives.
You cannot just think in terms one one factor, housing, which is the largest carrot on a stick. If the individual has family in CA and they have their own children or grandchildren that is a huge factor. I think this is even larger than the cheap housing pull. Then of course there are all the other factors which draw ppl from around the world to CA in spite of costs and secondary migration. Buyer's remorse is very common and its human nature to not know what you've got 'till it gone. Moderate weather, gone. The coast, gone. The redwoods, gone. The mountains, gone. Multicultural environment and cuisine, gone. Fresh fruits and vegetables year round, gone. Proximity to friends and family, gone. This of course depends on where one selects their next shangri la. But very few if any will have similar features.
This is very relative to the individual thinking of leaving. If you are not native to the state then moving to the South or Midwest may in fact be a good thing. Or if you are from another country with totally different factors that you like then moving abroad is also a consideration. A friend's wife is from Australia for example and the thought of moving back there is very appealing at some point. It really comes back to one's frame of reference and what one truly enjoys. No place will be perfect by a long shot. So sweeping generalizations do not really apply. Its much more situational than that.
Tell her this same logic. Then say we're moving to Arizona or Texas and you're not taking "no" for an answer. Consider other states too, but I recommend these and not too far from CA.
Worst case scenario, dump her (yes, that is an option) and find someone in your new locale. The states above have a lot of very attractive single women. If status quo stays as is you're allowing her to decide YOUR future basically. And if she knows you won't break-up with her then she has you and your future by the balls.
Good luck.
OP, I would say if you're looking to dump your wife for a larger house, I suggest you do it now before you resent each other, you both want different things in life.
But in all seriousness as others have mentioned California is a big state, once you get out toward Vacaville, Davis, Stockton, Tracy or Central Valley, or if you want an actual metro area Sacramento, you're still less than 3 hours drive from San Jose. I don't know if prices have gone up there, but at least 2 years ago houses where affordable on your salary out there. I'm not sure what you're looking for though, last year I was looking at townhouses near here in the 320-360 range, which I could afford in my salary then, not much different from your income, but prices have gone up a lot in that neighborhood, and wouldn't feel comfortable buying there now. But I'm sure there are places in Fremont even you could afford more than renting a 1bd apartment, granted if your making 6 figures and don't want to spend over 2k/month, it is tough to find anything around here.
Having to fly to see family is a big strain if you haven't done it in the past.
I personally know quite a few who have moved away only to return after a number of years. Some have returned as shortly as a year while others haven't returned 'home' until after their kids have grown and moved out of the house. Not affording to live here is really relative to *where* in CA they move back to. CA is a huge state with a wide range of home prices. For example my FIL moved back to CA after living in CO. He retired to Santa Maria which is pretty afforadable and much closer to his family. He and his wife are much happier to be out of the snow and cold after ~ 6 years in CO. They are both CA natives.
You cannot just think in terms one one factor, housing, which is the largest carrot on a stick. If the individual has family in CA and they have their own children or grandchildren that is a huge factor. I think this is even larger than the cheap housing pull. Then of course there are all the other factors which draw ppl from around the world to CA in spite of costs and secondary migration. Buyer's remorse is very common and its human nature to not know what you've got 'till it gone. Moderate weather, gone. The coast, gone. The redwoods, gone. The mountains, gone. Multicultural environment and cuisine, gone. Fresh fruits and vegetables year round, gone. Proximity to friends and family, gone. This of course depends on where one selects their next shangri la. But very few if any will have similar features.
This is very relative to the individual thinking of leaving. If you are not native to the state then moving to the South or Midwest may in fact be a good thing. Or if you are from another country with totally different factors that you like then moving abroad is also a consideration. A friend's wife is from Australia for example and the thought of moving back there is very appealing at some point. It really comes back to one's frame of reference and what one truly enjoys. No place will be perfect by a long shot. So sweeping generalizations do not really apply. Its much more situational than that.
Derek
Wow totally agree with this post. My wife and I were born and raised in the bay area and we moved to north Carolina almost 6 years ago. There's not a day that goes by now that I don't regret moving. True we have an affordable house here but that's about it. We miss our childhood friends, the rest of our family, the sites, the places we used to eat, being close to the coast, being able to just drive drive to Disneyland for the weekend. If I had it to do over again I would have stayed then moved north or even to the central valley. We'd love to move back now but its tough to sell a house and move.
"I lived in California my whole life. I knew intellectually that living elsewhere could get me a better quality of life for what I could afford. It took just one house hunting trip in a more affordable area to really bring that point home"
So accurate...I did the same in 1974, and haven't looked back. Born and raised in San Jose, my family was there, her family was there...we moved, 2 kids, no job to the Ozarks, 20 acre farm, with a log house, 2 miles to the nearest neighbor, no phone...loved it, great place to raise young kids...not so much when teenagers. I've since had the opportunity to live in Little Rock, Louisville, Southern Indiana (another farm), the Mtns of AZ, the desert of AZ, Dallas, Charleston, Seattle, Eugene, San Juan, Denver...every place is special. But none so special as San Francisco...still my favorite city...to visit.
To the OP..all I can say is you are not presenting the correct picture to your wife.
Each city you visit, you should pick up a "Homes" magazine, so you wife can see how much more house your money can buy as opposed to the Bay Area.
At this point in your life, your whole lives should be an adventure, seeking out the unknown, the untried. Look at each physical move as a learning experience, seek out and embrace new people, new friends, new jobs, new cities....how did you know you would like vanilla ice cream....until you tasted it. Get outta the rut, take the blinders off....and go taste life.
To those who are constantly looking back at what woulda been....I'm so sorry, you are missing so much.
We lived in the SF Bay Area for over 10 years. Wife has roots there.
It took us one trip to somewhere - more affordable, higher QOL, little traffic, intellectually stimulating environment, colleges galore etc ... and my wife was hooked.
Now - there is no way I can get her to move.
Each family / marriage is different.
Try the East Bay ... Sacramento ... or Central Valley. We tried the the East Bay and Central Valley - we liked it ... but there were tradeoffs - and overall, what you save in housing costs - you loose in commute times, gas - and gain in more stress. It all depends on where your work is.
This is such a personal decision and I think you have to make a list of what's important to you and your wife. Try not to overlook anything or take things for granted. The bottom line is: There is no perfect place to live! Every place you go to there is something good and something not so good about it. What makes an enjoyable place is the list of things you like is longer than the list of things you don't like. A lot of times a lower cost of living area is just not worth the sacrifice. You may find that taxes are higher or food is more expensive and your money doesn't go as far as you thought. Or that people are closed minded and you can't relate to them. Or that the weather sucks and your allergies get much worse. Or that the humidity, bugs and mosquitoes drive you nuts! The grass might seen greener but a lot of times it is not...more money doesn't necessarily means happier life. Good luck making your decision!
I personally know quite a few who have moved away only to return after a number of years. Some have returned as shortly as a year while others haven't returned 'home' until after their kids have grown and moved out of the house. Not affording to live here is really relative to *where* in CA they move back to. CA is a huge state with a wide range of home prices. For example my FIL moved back to CA after living in CO. He retired to Santa Maria which is pretty affordadable and much closer to his family. He and his wife are much happier to be out of the snow and cold after ~ 6 years in CO. They are both CA natives.
You cannot just think in terms one one factor, housing, which is the largest carrot on a stick. If the individual has family in CA and they have their own children or grandchildren that is a huge factor. I think this is even larger than the cheap housing pull. Then of course there are all the other factors which draw ppl from around the world to CA in spite of costs and secondary migration. Buyer's remorse is very common and its human nature to not know what you've got 'till it gone. Moderate weather, gone. The coast, gone. The redwoods, gone. The mountains, gone. Multicultural environment and cuisine, gone. Fresh fruits and vegetables year round, gone. Proximity to friends and family, gone. This of course depends on where one selects their next shangri la. But very few if any will have similar features.
This is very relative to the individual thinking of leaving. If you are not native to the state then moving to the South or Midwest may in fact be a good thing. Or if you are from another country with totally different factors that you like then moving abroad is also a consideration. A friend's wife is from Australia for example and the thought of moving back there is very appealing at some point. It really comes back to one's frame of reference and what one truly enjoys. No place will be perfect by a long shot. So sweeping generalizations do not really apply. Its much more situational than that.
Derek
I understand all of this...but I'm just saying I don't think most people who leave come back. We can come up with personal anecdotes all day long, but the fact remains population growth in CA has slowed quite a bit and most of the people moving here are from outside the U.S.
The trade off of CA is perhaps more worth it for those in the higher income brackets...but when you start getting close to median income or below, the trade off strongly favors moving out. And the cheaper areas of CA are still expensive compared to other places with similar amenities (or lack thereof as the case may be).
While we're offering personal anecdotes...I'll offer one of mine. A gay couple I'm friends with used to live in CA together for many years. They sold their condo and moved out of Orange County in late 2005 (one of the partners was very financially savvy). They moved back to Utah where they both grew up (partly to be closer to family, partly to get out of the rat race). They ended up breaking up after the move to UT...but the one I'm closer to ended up paying cash for his condo. He was able to leave his fast paced corporate job (which involved a lot of travel), go back to school, and then work part time as a massage therapist making ~30K per year, which he is still doing 7 years later. He couldn't afford to move back to CA even if he wanted to (which I don't think he does)...the cost of living is too high for a massage therapist and he's too old (late 50s) to land another good paying corporate job (nor does he want such a job at this point).
I think the scenario I outlined above is more common than the "move back" scenario. I do concede that if they'd had family here, that might have been enough to keep them both here.
I understand all of this...but I'm just saying I don't think most people who leave come back. We can come up with personal anecdotes all day long, but the fact remains population growth in CA has slowed quite a bit and most of the people moving here are from outside the U.S.
The trade off of CA is perhaps more worth it for those in the higher income brackets...but when you start getting close to median income or below, the trade off strongly favors moving out. And the cheaper areas of CA are still expensive compared to other places with similar amenities (or lack thereof as the case may be).
While we're offering personal anecdotes...I'll offer one of mine. A gay couple I'm friends with used to live in CA together for many years. They sold their condo and moved out of Orange County in late 2005 (one of the partners was very financially savvy). They moved back to Utah where they both grew up (partly to be closer to family, partly to get out of the rat race). They ended up breaking up after the move to UT...but the one I'm closer to ended up paying cash for his condo. He was able to leave his fast paced corporate job (which involved a lot of travel), go back to school, and then work part time as a massage therapist making ~30K per year, which he is still doing 7 years later. He couldn't afford to move back to CA even if he wanted to (which I don't think he does)...the cost of living is too high for a massage therapist and he's too old (late 50s) to land another good paying corporate job (nor does he want such a job at this point).
I think the scenario I outlined above is more common than the "move back" scenario. I do concede that if they'd had family here, that might have been enough to keep them both here.
Yes, I understand your points as well. However, I think it would be very hard to gather such a statistic as I described, natives leaving, then returning, or not. But it really doesn't matter when it comes down to it. Its completely dependant on the individual with so many variables and preferences involved. That is my point. I could care less whether more are coming or going, unless I simply like following others. It has no bearing on where I enjoy living most at all. Also as you mentioned in your story the couple was not from CA to begin with *and* they had family in UT. That one is almost a no brainer really. In that case with those factors it just made more sense to move. There were simply not enough reasons to justify paying a premium to live here anymore. And I think its that way for a lot of people living here now and planning to leave. So yes, in that sense its a common scenario.
How many Californians especially in the larger metros like the Bay Area are not from California to begin with and have relatives in other states or countries? I would say that percentage is fairly high. Even in Monterey many of the people I work with are not from here. So the idea of moving somewhere else is all the more appealing, especially when things get tough (e.g. economy, housing costs, taxes, etc...). What's really stopping all of these folks from returning to where they came from or trying some place new? The overall population growth was so common before that this somehow seems strange now. But I think its a good thing. Let many leave and spread out more throughout the country. CA is still the most populous state.
When you look back at the OP that is what the question is really about, not a general migration trend of ppl flowing in and out. The wife has strong ties to the Bay Area and good reasons to want to stay, unlike so many other who don't. With no children, family or childhood connections to CA its a different paradigm all together.
However I will concede that is is harder to remain in CA, even for some natives, due to the higher COL. As far back as I can remember CA, HI and NY have always been the most expensive states to live in. That hasn't changed much nor will it. But there are places to live which are more affordable like the Sacramento area for example.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 02-23-2013 at 01:05 AM..
There is really no upside to us living in the Bay Area. On a combined income of about 100k, we are basically lower class. Buying a home or having kids is a non-starter. And we aren't getting any younger (both of us are in early 30s). Plus we don't work in the tech industry.
Plus the QOL imo isn't superior enough to justify the price premium over Los Angeles or San Diego (I've lived in both).
I've wanted to move for the last 2-3 years.
But the big snag is my wife. She grew up here and lived here all her life, has family here, etc. She enjoys her job despite the meager pay.
I even asked her the million dollar question: "If you could live in the Bay Area but choose not to have kids, would you do it?" My wife REALLY wants kids, and yet she answered that that would be a tough choice, which goes to show how much she likes it here.
That being said, I can't imagine spending the rest of our lives renting mediocre 1 br apartments and not raising a family and all that stuff that's just not going to happen here in the Bay Area.
So any suggestions for convincing the wife? Divorce is NOT an option, although I may be open to the East Bay.
Have you thought about moving a little further inland, maybe Livermore or even 1/2 between Sac and SanFrancisco? It would be less expensvie and you would still be close to all the bay area attractions and the things she is accustom to having; things that would make her feel at home. It is almost too bad, when an area is so ingrained into ones thinking that they can't be ready to explore other places. On the other hand, I guess it is nice she is so content she doesn't feel the need to try something new. There are 2 sides to every story..
You say her willingness to maybe give up having kids if it means a move shows how much she likes where she is, are you sure, it isn't the fear of the unknown?
I can only imagine what you and she must be going through, but if she simply doesn't want to consider a move, you might have to give it up and accept that as long as you are married you will be living in the bay area or close to it. I am wondering why she can' see the printing on the wall; living in San Francisco and the surrounding area is very expensive and raising kids without the money to give them a decent life isn't fair to them..
Nita
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