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PhoenixSomeday is the real deal; he's actually seeking an entry level tech job. If he posts sometime in 2013, "I got a job!", that'd be a good indication that entry level tech jobs are available. If, however, in 2014, he posts, "Still no job yet," that'd be a pretty bad sign.
I'm a senior engineer. My knowledge is second-hand from a cross-section of younger engineers, older engineers, people who do other jobs in tech, observations my employer's recent hiring and various media. I'm not on the front lines.
I feel that the media is very misleading: they regularly overhype the employment situation. I also see (or think I see) a big chicken-and-egg where many jobs require experience but relatively few jobs don't require experience and are willing to provide experience.
I think that the Silicon Valley is biggest concentration of tech jobs on the planet. I think that there are tons of great jobs here. But I think lots of those jobs aren't available to entry level engineers.
Too bad, the legal world is very similar these days. Is it just that the tech world is changing much like law is? In law, far fewer attorneys needed due to automation, outsourcing, and having lower level (paralegals, and B.As) do the work.
Is the tech world just outsourcing a lot of jobs? Or are they going unfilled because those that remain get the job done (I have noticed companies hold off on hiring as long as possible, just to see if they can get by without filling those positions).
I ask, because I'm thinking about a career change, but I want some assurances as to the viability of said career I want to change into...
You are underestimating everything. For one thing, shared utilities will easily ad another $50 on to that $700 room. You are only budgeting $6 per day for food. Thats like one $5 footlong at Subway, and nothing else. You are forgetting about taxes, and miscellaneous expenses, clothing, etc.
You will not have any $200 to play with. You would probably actually end up coming up short.
You're overlooking a few things:
-The example given above is the post-tax income. So that's free-and-clear $$$
- Curtner Studio's, great location near public transit(train and bus) rents an entire, modern apartment with excellent amenities(fitness center, computer lab, laundry facility) for $590(all utitiles included). Also, a member on this forum is currently paying only $500 for a room.
- The minimum wage for SJ is actually $10.00/hr, which yields a post-tax income of ~$1450. Do the math accordingly at $12/hr and $14/hr. Savings actually jumped up to $400+ per month on rock-bottom minimum wages, even higher, $600+, with slightly higher wages that are still entry level.
-Obamacare will kick in 2014 so that takes care of the health insurance
-Why go to Subway when you can make your own clean and nutritious sammich at home? I've lived like a king on $150 food budget so $180-$200 = galactic emperor-style healthy homemade meals
-The example given above is the post-tax income. So that's free-and-clear $$$
- Curtner Studio's, great location near public transit(train and bus) rents an entire, modern apartment with excellent amenities(fitness center, computer lab, laundry facility) for $590(all utitiles included). Also, a member on this forum is currently paying only $500 for a room.
- The minimum wage for SJ is actually $10.00/hr, which yields a post-tax income of ~$1450. Do the math accordingly at $12/hr and $14/hr. Savings actually jumped up to $400+ per month on rock-bottom minimum wages, even higher, $600+, with slightly higher wages that are still entry level.
-Obamacare will kick in 2014 so that takes care of the health insurance
-Why go to Subway when you can make your own clean and nutritious sammich at home? I've lived like a king on $150 food budget so $180-$200 = galactic emperor-style healthy homemade meals
That's only if you get as many work hours as you anticipate. Hours can be and often are cut in any given company depending on how good business is and even if it's good, it's still usually better for an employer to have more employees with fewer hours than vise-versa. Why would they do the latter? Probably to keep everyone under the Obamacare threshold and so there will be little disruption to operations if an employee quits or is fired. The more, the merrier.
It's not that "great." That's a fairly run-down area with both the light rail and the Guadalupe bike trail routed through there so some sketchy-looking, got-nothing-to-lose people pass through there.
The minimum wage doesn't mean redistribution of the wealth; it was meant to reduce the strain on the poor shmucks who are raising families on their food service jobs. Thus, $10/hour might look like a lot where you live but it doesn't go far here and, as seen in #1, fewer and unstable work hours means smaller "huge" paychecks.
Obamacare is, I opine, a liability to both employers and employees alike as employers will first avoid giving an employer enough hours to qualify for health insurance. After that, an employer will offer the lousisest insurance their stingy money can buy, which employees probably won't want. Employees can out of their employer-offered insurance and instead buy expensive insurance on the market or they can pay to opt out of health insurance altogether. Either way, the cost of "free" Obamacare is borne by someone.
Are you going straight from school to work? Or vise versa? You'll be surprised how big of a chore it is to drag around a home-made sandwich in your cooler and actually keep it cool enough to not poison you. You'll be more surprised how tempting it is to just grab a bite on the go when you so much as think of that warm, overly-moist and downright pathetic bologna-and-mayonnaise sandwich is gonna taste.
^^, Yeah, I'll be biking and bus pass. $50-$70 per month. No insurance, no gas, no maintenance.
SJ is a mostly flat city and the weather is nice most of the year. It can be icky and wet in winter, and a bit hot & sweaty in summer but it's very doable compared with most places in the U.S....especially if you live and work close to your job(s).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSV
Also, there are guaranteed low-interest(3.8%)(a good chunk of it at 0% interest) federally-backed student loans.
I want to minimize loans as much as possible, but I could theoretically fund all of my living and tuition expenses strictly through low-interest loans with easy and very affordable repayment options and multiple deferments post-graduation as well as free Pell grants, Cal grants, and then, not have to work a W-2 at all. Instead, I can do income-generating activities on my own time/pace(small business, tutoring, etc.)
That's another option, but I've never had a loan and I hate debt with a passion, so that will be a secondary fallback option if my Plan A doesn't bear fruit.
Thoughts?
I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to take out loans. People vastly underestimate how hard they will be to pay back.
My only thought is based on your other threads...Honestly...I just don't see where going to SJ state is really going to do that much for your career. I think you're better off getting that degree in Texas where the in state tuition and general cost of living are a lot lower than here. SJSU is a "nothing special" state university...'ya know?
Disclaimer: I do not work in tech, so I could be all wet. But, if memory serves me, you are in your late 20s....so you have less margin for error than someone 10 years younger. I'm really not sure that the higher salaries here (even in Tech) are commensurate with the much higher cost of living, unless you're a "star". No offense, but if you were a tech star, you'd likely already be one and working here already. I know that sounds harsh, but I don't mean to be. I would hate to see you work your butt off only to find out you could've done the same thing with a lot less stress where you live right now.
By the way, I really like this blog written by an engineer on frugality and whatnot. He retired from his job at age 30. He lives in Colorado and rides his bike around town most of the time, even in winter.
He mentioned in one of his blog entries that he turned down a job in Santa Rosa, CA because of the much higher cost of living....and he made that decision in his early 20s. I think the same logic (and then some) applies to your situation.
My only thought is based on your other threads...Honestly...I just don't see where going to SJ state is really going to do that much for your career. I think you're better off getting that degree in Texas where the in state tuition and general cost of living are a lot lower than here. SJSU is a "nothing special" state university...'ya know?
I totally agree with you. And I do work in high tech and have for the last 13 years in R&D. I worked at the top high tech companies, and at startups. I paid my own way through school by working, grants and student loans.
To the OP, I have been watching this thread since you started it. While it's great that you have such ambition, you are really overestimating the value of a Computer Science degree from SJSU to employers for entry level positions. SJSU's location and networking potential won't provide any edge.
All those high paying high tech software engineer jobs want experience (in addition to 4 year degrees), even for entry level positions. And the only places giving undergrads that type of experience are internships at the BIG high tech companies. Physical location gives no advantage for these internships. The big companies recruit interns from the top schools from across the country (and internationally, though those tend to go to grad students), internships are paid and with paid/subsidized travel/relocation/housing. They also have internships positions at other offices (i.e. Seattle, RTP, Richardson, etc.). They send recruiters and interviewers (usually alumni of those schools) out to interview potential interns and new grads for entry level positions.
It's hard to get into the industry as a software engineer/developer (note that I did not say programmer) if you don't have the right degree and GPA from the top school. A great internship can make up for it. Networking and contacts does not really help when you are just starting out.
Instead of focusing so much on SJSU, I suggest you try and get into the best computer science program (that you can afford) as possible regardless of location. Given the high COL here, it's really not worth it if you can get into a better program elsewhere. And aim for as much internship experience, at as big of a name of a company as you can.
Also don't overestimate the amount of time you will have to work in addition to pursuing your degree. In addition to lectures, you will have labs and tutorials sessions to attend. You will also have assignments and projects, much of which will need to done in groups or in the computer lab at school. Working overnight in the labs near deadlines was not uncommon. My school had classes, labs, exams at night, and even exams on weekend.
I also see (or think I see) a big chicken-and-egg where many jobs require experience but relatively few jobs don't require experience and are willing to provide experience.
You do indeed see it; it's definitely there. It makes one wonder how you even get in the business in the first place, unless you either know someone, or graduated with a 4.0 and super duper honors with a Masters from MIT. I think employers (or at least their HR zombie drones) just scan for lots of TLA and high GPA numbers and big school names (from an entry level perspective).
I know from personal experience, as someone who does hiring for my area, that what someone looks like on paper doesn't mean squat. I've seen good on paper, bad in reality; good on paper, good in reality; bad on paper, bad in reality; and bad on paper, good in reality each a basically equal number of times, and enough times that I barely give a 5 second glance to the paper and just go interview the person. Granted the industries are different and paper will matter somewhat more in the tech business, but the general concept is near-universal. I really think employers need to be digging deeper and getting to know people more (which, I agree, is obviously hard when they claim that there's "hundreds" of applicants). Potential matters more to me than past experience or paper and stats. For the right person, the extra training, along with their right mindset, work ethic, and dedication was always worth it in the long run. 100%. Hiring someone who looked good on paper, but had a bad personality or work ethic or some other such glaring issue that was well captureable in an interview was never, ever worth the headache they caused and act of congress required by HR to remove them. Companies not wanting to take the time to train the right person really bugs me. From their perspective, through their eyes, I get it. I really do. It takes time and money that they feel they don't have enough of. But I question how many truly successful companies in the long term had this mindset...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomatic
... It's hard to get into the industry as a software engineer/developer (note that I did not say programmer) ...
Now you've got definitely got my interest. Can you please elaborate on the difference between engineer, developer and programmer? I'd assume that for the former you've got the actual B.S., plus things like heavy participation in each stage of the SDLC, designing the system from a high level perspective, you know, developing and engineering the whole thing. Whereas for the latter it's more about banging out code as directed to by the engineers?
Can you give an overall picture of the two different types, day in the life, their place on a project from start to finish, overall career outlook, etc?
I really love programming and just want to bang code out, but I also take the time to design it properly because I've seen the enormous benefit that it has (designed well enough, I've found the programs almost write themselves and were far easier to maintain and modify).
Is the tech world just outsourcing a lot of jobs? Or are they going unfilled because those that remain get the job done (I have noticed companies hold off on hiring as long as possible, just to see if they can get by without filling those positions).
There is some outsourcing but not so much an issue in Silicon Valley. Outsourcing impacts jobs like IT at a gas company or tech support for medical devices than developers at Facebook. Some very large and dying companies do outsource a lot in an attempt to stave off death.
Going unfilled because those remaining get the job done is common. Needing to hire is often a subjective judgement call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomatic
All those high paying high tech software engineer jobs want experience (in addition to 4 year degrees), even for entry level positions. And the only places giving undergrads that type of experience are internships at the BIG high tech companies. Physical location gives no advantage for these internships. The big companies recruit interns from the top schools from across the country (and internationally, though those tend to go to grad students), internships are paid and with paid/subsidized travel/relocation/housing. They also have internships positions at other offices (i.e. Seattle, RTP, Richardson, etc.). They send recruiters and interviewers (usually alumni of those schools) out to interview potential interns and new grads for entry level positions.
This is a very narrow and uninformed perspective on the industry. There are many little startups and mom-and-pop operations that have no choice but to give entry level developers a shot. The work sucks and often borders on the ridiculous but it is work. There are big but not popular companies that give entry level developers a shot without experience. This is only accurate if you insist on starting your career at Apple, Google, Facebook and the like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnomatic
software engineer/developer (note that I did not say programmer)
Groan. Not this terminology nonsense again. This is fantasy invented by people with too much time on their hands.
I speak from my years of experience here, and a few up in Canada. I stand my statement. I have been on both side of the hiring process at startups and the big companies. If you wish to interpret that a narrow and uninformed opinion, fine.
I had friends who did their internships at smaller/lesser known companies. Are their experience any less valuable, no. But they had a harder time getting jobs as new grads. Those who had no internship at all had the hardest time.
The OP was willing to make a lot financial sacrifices to attend SJSU, because he felt it would to be an advantage for entry level jobs. He place a high value on the location, which I personally think would not as much of an advantage as he thinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixSomeday
Now you've got definitely got my interest. Can you please elaborate on the difference between engineer, developer and programmer? .
Yes it's terminology. So are a great many things in the industry. Learn it, use it and work it.
PheonixSomeday, it's not about the actual degree you have, it's about the experience, flexibility, adaptability and your skill set (insert more useless terminology here as you wish). A lot of it is what you described. Software development in the real world is rarely one person designing and implementing end to end. One of my larger projects had 100+ engineers across 3 continents, 5 or 6 locations.
I had friends who did their internships at smaller/lesser known companies. Are their experience any less valuable, no. But they had a harder time getting jobs as new grads. Those who had no internship at all had the hardest time.
This is an attempt to make a law/rule/rule-of-thumb based on a few data points in an extremely large and diverse environment. It's like saying, "Pretty girls have an easier time getting boyfriends than ugly girls." It kind of seems true and may seem true anecdotally but it is really a too simple attempt to describe a very complex and chaotic environment. It's true enough to say, "It's a good idea to get an internship if you have the chance," but not to say much more than that. To my mind, this board has overblown internships, making a mountain out of a grain of sand.
Thanks mysticalgear and gnomatic for the advice and input.
The whole rationale for moving to SJ is predicated on SJSU being an excellent(for a state school) "hook" into the tech industry, given it's strategic location and opportunity for internships, specifically for comp-sci majors.
If that is, in fact, not the case, and SJSU's stone-throw-away location from all the major tech giants as well as smaller tech firms(lower hiring standards) and the local networking advantage garnered through decades of graduating students and faculty who are prominent players in the tech industry, is in fact, not a major advantage over, say, Uni of Houston or Texas A&M or UTEP ....., then my whole rationale is based on faulty information, and therefore, moving to SJ isn't necessary
That said, let me share with you what what I found out:
^^ SJSU CE & CS grads make 78k and 73k fresh out school. Those are average figures, which means that top candidates can easily make over 90k. Again, fresh out of school.
Survey from global recruiting firm that shows, in Silicon Valley, junior/entry-levels engineers/developers who went to a "Not Top School"(SJSU) make, on average, $10k more than their counterparts who went to a "Top School"(Stanford, Cal) in Silicon Valley. I'm speculating on the reasons why, but that maybe because CS students from "top schools" may emphasis theory and comp-sci fundamentals whereas SJSU grads have a wealth of practical knowledge(languages, etc) and work experience, due in large part, to their location: Silicon Valley.
So based on the objective quantifiable evidence above, for entry-level/junior engineers/developers, it looks like SJSU has better employment prospects than almost all of the "top schools". And at only 7k tuition, it's probably the best bargain, bang-for-quality, Comp-Sci undergrad program in the country.
And here is some input from another forum from a senior software engineer:
Quote:
SJSU is highly regarded in Silicon Valley and most companies recruit heavily there. Many companies have collaborative research relationsips with the Engineering and Computer Science departments at SJSU providing opportunities for internships. If you want to work in CS in Silicon Valley probably only degrees from Stanford and UC Berkeley would give you a bigger edge than graduating from SJSU.
Thoughts?
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