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I spoke to a GC about it today. He said he's seen it several times, and it looks like it's a combination of acidic water and electrolytic leeching due to improper grounding of the electrical system. It occurs not only in concrete foundations, but also in pipes that are run underground.
In short, it's not normal to need to replumb the house.
As a builder who built multi-family homes over decades, I remember that there were a number of years in the late 70s and early 80s where recycling of copper was a huge thing, but they hadn't worked out the bugs. Much of the copper that was recycled, was not engineered well, and it had many impurities remaining in the the recycled batches that they didn't think would effect its performance. But, it did. Some of the impurities were responsible for a wide range of issues including pin hole leaks, and premature leaks and failures. I don't remember there ever being any class action suits, but there should have been, and maybe some out there.
The problem with running the lines over-head in the attic, and the reason they ran it underground to begin with is that in the slab the lines remain cooler. When you run them in the attic they will warm, and take a while longer - if ever for the water to cool enough to satisfy many people from the north. The other problem is that they sweat and condensate. Although in Florida - it being so hot in the attics - it evaporates quickly, although over time the moisture will cause some damage.
If lines are run in the attic, they need to be well insulated, and in addition to that, batt insulation should be laid over the lines reducing this effect.
Manifold lines, where the tubing is run directly to the outlets is a cost effective method of remediation of these lines if they need to be replaced. The tubing used is flexible, and can be run directly to the fixtures without a lot of joints. It is fished into the partitions and to the fixtures so that cutting and patching of drywall can be minimized.
Plumbers put the copper under the slab simply because it takes a ton less time to install and there are way less fittings involved. I have seen houses with copper in the attic and run between floors that have pinholes, so don't blame the soil. It's in the water. Why else would it be localized in pockets. (I'm talking about the Sarasota area) I can't recall fixing a slab/pinhole leak in the city of Sarasota or Venice. The county is another story, 1 yesterday.
The History Channel had a good show about copper and it's uses, watch for it.
Plumbers put the copper under the slab simply because it takes a ton less time to install and there are way less fittings involved. I have seen houses with copper in the attic and run between floors that have pinholes, so don't blame the soil. It's in the water. Why else would it be localized in pockets. (I'm talking about the Sarasota area) I can't recall fixing a slab/pinhole leak in the city of Sarasota or Venice. The county is another story, 1 yesterday.
The History Channel had a good show about copper and it's uses, watch for it.
I built in 5 states, and the distribution of recycled copper was not restricted to just Sarasota. It happened all over.
It is definitely less expensive to lay the copper under the slab than running it through joist, and partitions and come straight up to the fixtures. That is the primary reason why it was and still is run underground, less material, less labor, and condensate issues, as I noted.
The type of copper used when it is underground, is supposed to be able to handle the issues relative to the soil types. And, good engineers recommend different types of copper for different applications - it is standard industry practice.
I clearly stated that the reason for pinhole leaks was due to poor recycling practices that allowed some level of impurities in the copper when it was recycled. That and the use of the wrong materials can cause pin holes in below slab applications. Copper has good qualities for dealing with many types of conditions and soil types, if you use the right kind of copper.
That said, we have had far worse issues and defects with materials that were substituted than the issues we dealt with with copper. The introduction of PVC tubing for water as an example, failed and causesd many issues until they provided better engineered products as well. Many of these products are still relatively new, so time will provide evidence if they will endure.
The type of copper used when it is underground, is supposed to be able to handle the issues relative to the soil types. And, good engineers recommend different types of copper for different applications - it is standard industry practice.
I clearly stated that the reason for pinhole leaks was due to poor recycling practices that allowed some level of impurities in the copper when it was recycled. That and the use of the wrong materials can cause pin holes in below slab applications. Copper has good qualities for dealing with many types of conditions and soil types, if you use the right kind of copper.
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Perhaps you care to share these "different" types of copper you speak of. All I am aware of is the type M,L, & K. Thick wall being K and thin wall being M.
L is the standard now as was then. M is what the big box stores sell to unsuspecting homeowners and wannabe plumbers.
K is what an engineer or architect dreams about, but is cost prohibitive to install. I have never heard of special copper for underground and think I would have in the past 28 years of working only in the plumbing field. I have not seen that mentioned in any code book either.
Copper tube is made from recycled copper, copper wire is made from virgin copper. Just a little factoid from that history channel show I mentioned in the previous post.
I think blaming pinholes on recycled qualities is pretty weak in todays world. Look at the areas that have had the majority of the leaks. There are definate problem areas and areas with less problems. Why?
Why do you suppose the homes on well water don't get nearly the amount of pinholes as those with city water? Could it be something in the water?
A/c lines use the same copper as plumbers, no problems there? Water quality is the obvious problem in most cases.
PVC has not been allowed to be used as water distribution pipes in a house for a long time, if ever. I can't remember it ever being approved. CPVC is a product widely used in lieu of of copper, but is having issues of it's own. Primarily, it splits and gets brittle and is not something I install because of this and other compatability issues.
Perhaps you care to share these "different" types of copper you speak of. All I am aware of is the type M,L, & K. Thick wall being K and thin wall being M. Type K was usually recommended, and value engineered to type L occasionally on some projects.
L is the standard now as was then. PVC and CPVC are the standard now. M is what the big box stores sell to unsuspecting homeowners and wannabe plumbers. Type M would never be acceptable to any engineer specifying copper for underground work.
K is what an engineer or architect dreams about, but is cost prohibitive to install. The cost is often considered, and now more often than not PVC and CPVC are specified. Incoming fire service lines are CPVC. I have never heard of special copper I never said "special copper" lets be real about what I said. I said - "The type of copper used when it is underground, is supposed to be able to handle the issues relative to the soil types. And, good engineers recommend different types of copper for different applications - it is standard industry practice.
I clearly stated that the reason for pinhole leaks was due to poor recycling practices that allowed some level of impurities in the copper when it was recycled. That and the use of the wrong materials can cause pin holes in below slab applications. Copper has good qualities for dealing with many types of conditions and soil types, if you use the right kind of copper. for underground and think I would have in the past 28 years of working only in the plumbing field. I have not seen that mentioned in any code book either. That is because they would recommend the different types of copper, or other suitable materials that are allowed by the jurisdiction.
Copper tube is made from recycled copper, copper wire is made from virgin copper. Just a little factoid from that history channel show I mentioned in the previous post. Great! We agree on the tubing - but in the 70s and 80s they refined the process, and now the impurities they accept in the batches are more carefully monitored, and the process of making and recycling has improved from when they first started it.
I think blaming pinholes on recycled qualities is pretty weak in todays world. OK - I don't agree, I think, as I stated that there are a variety of reasons. Other reasons are the minerals and metals in the water and soil that attack the copper lines, as well as the types of copper - which I also mentioned, and the impurities that are contained in the copper walls and are more susceptible to failure because they are not as good as the copper itself. Look at the areas that have had the majority of the leaks. There are definate problem areas and areas with less problems. Why? Sure, there are - soil types vary all over, so does mineral and metal content, sulfur content and other things that can cause copper to deteriorate and weaken prematurely. - Thus the reason why certain types of copper are preferred because they have properties, strengths, and thicknesses that give more of a safety factor. These materials in many cases have been in the ground for 30+ years.
Why do you suppose the homes on well water don't get nearly the amount of pinholes as those with city water? Ugh, maybe the water treatment, but I don't agree that it is only homes on city or well water that are failing. I haven't seen those statistics - provide some - I'd like to know more. Could it be something in the water? Sure - as I mentioned there are multiple factors involved.
A/c lines use the same copper as plumbers, no problems there? I don't agree with you. I know for sure that HVAC contractors are replacing refrigerant lines often here as well, and mine was just replaced - my underground water lines haven't. Water quality is the obvious problem in most cases. Again, I don't think that is accurate to say that.
PVC has not been allowed to be used as water distribution pipes in a house for a long time, if ever. PVC Schedule 40 and Schedule 80 pipe and fittings are immune to galvanic or electrolytic action. They can be used underground, underwater, in the presence of metals, and can be connected to metals. - seePVC and CPVC Pipe and Fittings
I can't remember it ever being approved. Hmmmm? We have used it a lot!! CPVC is used more often for fire sprinkler lines in our project due to is heat resistive qualities. CPVC is a product widely used in lieu of of copper, but is having issues of it's own. Primarily, it splits and gets brittle and is not something I install because of this and other compatability issues. It used to be, but again, much of the recent engineering of the product over the years has solved those issues. That is not true any longer.
Same thing with vinyl windows - the use of vinyl initially was susceptible to premature failure because of UV light - it would become extremely brittle, now vinyl windows have better engineered materials used, and it is no longer the case.
Again, I am not trying to sell my plumbing services. Like you are. I am interested in making sure people are aware of the issues with re-piping the houses, and the causes of it. Not all house buyers should expect that they will need to re-pipe their houses here. It happens, but it is not a major factor.
I stand by all the issues I said about re-piping the house, and the things a person considering re-piping a house should consider. Lines run in the attic are not a preferred practice for a number of reasons. You ought to enlighten everyone about what your thoughts are there - and give some good practice items to consider.
Trying to discredit me on something I probably know more than you do about isn't going to help your cause. I worked for one of the largest mechanical contractors for years before I got into General Contracting - so I have a diverse background.
Last edited by Big House; 09-29-2011 at 07:47 PM..
I am not trying to discredit you in particular. Maybe trying to put out there that there are other issues at play concerning the pinholes in our area.
I really don't beleive you are more experienced than I in residential plumbing in FL. Probably, for sure, more experienced in building.
Are you a contractor in FL or Maryland? I have always been right here in Sarasota county, plumbing, putting custom plumbing systems in new homes, 40 hours a week for too many years.
Riddle me this, when I cut out a section of copper with a pinhole in it, why is there a green bump on the inside of the pinhole? That leads me to think the leaks origin is from the inside.
The A/C guys I talk to don't seem to have issues with leaks.
FYI I was working in a house today on a well for the past 50+ years no leaks yet. In my area there are a lot of houses like this one. Across the street from me the house is now about 11 years old and had it's first pinhole at the age of 4 yrs. It has had 2 or 3 more and has had epoxy lined on the inside of the pipes.
You may want to check into the "PVC is the standard". IT is not. Let's say you run PVC in the house for water lines, would you use that for hot and cold?
I can quote the code book on the PVC in a house thing, if you like.
I don't think fire sprinklers have a place in this thread. That's completely different from water lines.
"I stand by all the issues I said about re-piping the house, and the things a person considering re-piping a house should consider. Lines run in the attic are not a preferred practice for a number of reasons. You ought to enlighten everyone about what your thoughts are there - and give some good practice items to consider".
There is only one plumbing system I would recommend when doing a repipe. Uponor has the best system out there. I have it in my home. It is flexible, hot and cold temps don't hurt it, there is no glue involved, there are no metal clamps to corrode, and it expands and contracts if your pipes freeze. You should look into it BH. I'm sure the plumbers you work with know about it.
Am I selling my services? Do you see my name anywhere? Heck, I could be a retiree here in the warm climate of beautiful FL doing nothing but buggin' you! Or maybe I am the world's greatest plumber! Nah, I doubt that. You just never know who's pounding the keys out there. Which makes me wonder as much about your knowledge as you about mine. (The whole PVC in the house thing kinda blew it a little.)
I was attracted to this site primarily because of the misinformation I have seen posted here.
You seem to take issue with a lot of people on here. What's up with that?
Trouble taking advice? We could actually learn from each other instead of the whole competition thing you have going on.
Here is another, probably the better one, it lists several studies done by organizations, schools, and super smart people. A lot of fingers pointing to water quality and chlorimines. be sure to read the PDF file there as well. Copper Pinhole Leaks
Show us something about bad soil conditions.
People want to know why all the leaks, it is a question I hear just about everyday. I need to know this stuff, you don't think I sit around and guess the answers, do you.
Looks like you both like fishing. I suggest you take a fishing trip and discuss your plumbing issues.
I'm flattered you looked at my profile. The wind is blowing all weekend, no offshore this time. But thanks for making me think about it.
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