this is why I can't live in an HOA (Miami: brokers, neighborhoods)

[imagardener]

Why not name the people who assigned the huge fine? If they are following their association rules they can say that. Obviously they thought they were right to do what they did. How is it "demonizing" to state the facts? A fact is a fact, in fact.

If I do something I stand behind my action. Sometimes I do dumb things and people tell me that. :-)

[Ladywithafan]

Originally Posted by bbronston

When I am on the buying side, I do everything I can to locate the HOA docs for my buyer. Many places have them on the Clerk of Court website. Some are available from a management company. I've also incorporated a requirement for the seller to provide them to the buyer with a right to review similar to what a condo buyer is entitled.

Regarding your second paragraph, I think you didn't follow what I meant. I am talking about the differences between condos and HOAs with regard to real estate contract disclosure requirements and obligations (or lack of obligation) to provide governing docs. I have been an HOA president and a board member of a condo association so I understand your point (I think) but I am talking about real estate sales contract requirements in this case.

Condominium and HOA documents are available from the clerk of the court as notarized documents/public knowledge as well as from property management firms. If you as a licensed R.E. agent do not provide the prospective buyer with the proper documents ~ you can be held liable for non-discolosure.

Been working in the property management business since 2004 and wholeheartedly recommend anyone buying into an HOA in the Sarasota/Bradenton area would be well advised to do their due diligence before purchasing in an association ~ I deal with uninformed buyers on a daily basis as well as realtors who play stupid in regards to documents, applications and estoppels ~ it is in the buyer's best interest to attend a board meeting or two, read the rules & bylaws, talk to members in the community ~ fines are big business in HOAs ~ from my experience with a number of properties "out east" those fining committees go bonkers on mailbox, lawn & parking fines ~ happy trails

[bbronston]

Originally Posted by Ladywithafan

Condominium and HOA documents are available from the clerk of the court as notarized documents/public knowledge as well as from property management firms. If you as a licensed R.E. agent do not provide the prospective buyer with the proper documents ~ you can be held liable for non-discolosure.

I believe I already mentioned that the docs are available on the clerk's website and sometimes from the management companies, if there is one. I believe I also already mentioned that, as a matter of practice I do make every attempt to obtain HOA documents for my buyers although I have come across situations where there was literally an association in place but no one had documents or they were so out dated that they were in the process of being re-written. But, just to be clear, the agent's responsibility for a buyer in a HOA is to make sure that the seller properly discloses to the buyer that there is an HOA, that the costs are X dollars per Y period, and that the docs are (hopefully) on the clerk's website or available from the developer. Although an agent's skill, care, and diligence responsibilities would suggest that it is best to help the buyer get them (and certainly there is a responsibility to not make false or misleading statements about the suitability of a property for the buyer), there's no licensing law that I know of that requires the agent to provide the buyer with HOA documents.

If you are talking about a condo, which I am not, there is an actual legal requirement for the SELLER to provide the docs to the BUYER. The agent facilitates it, of course, but the law (as far as I know--I'm not an attorney and I don't give legal advice) doesn't even mention the agent. For HOAs where there is an even lower bar, there is no liability for not procuring the docs for the buyer, at least not in the statute. Obviously, circumstances and specific details of a particular situation could impose some liability but I'm just talking about the basic licensing law we had to learn for real estate.

If you know a statute that says it is the agent's responsibility, please post it.

[Ladywithafan]

Originally Posted by bbronston

I believe I already mentioned that the docs are available on the clerk's website and sometimes from the management companies, if there is one. I believe I also already mentioned that, as a matter of practice I do make every attempt to obtain HOA documents for my buyers although I have come across situations where there was literally an association in place but no one had documents or they were so out dated that they were in the process of being re-written. But, just to be clear, the agent's responsibility for a buyer in a HOA is to make sure that the seller properly discloses to the buyer that there is an HOA, that the costs are X dollars per Y period, and that the docs are (hopefully) on the clerk's website or available from the developer. Although an agent's skill, care, and diligence responsibilities would suggest that it is best to help the buyer get them (and certainly there is a responsibility to not make false or misleading statements about the suitability of a property for the buyer), there's no licensing law that I know of that requires the agent to provide the buyer with HOA documents.

If you are talking about a condo, which I am not, there is an actual legal requirement for the SELLER to provide the docs to the BUYER. The agent facilitates it, of course, but the law (as far as I know--I'm not an attorney and I don't give legal advice) doesn't even mention the agent. For HOAs where there is an even lower bar, there is no liability for not procuring the docs for the buyer, at least not in the statute. Obviously, circumstances and specific details of a particular situation could impose some liability but I'm just talking about the basic licensing law we had to learn for real estate.

If you know a statute that says it is the agent's responsibility, please post it.

Florida Statute Section 720.401, requires owners of real property subject to a homeowner’s association(s), to deliver to a potential purchaser the Disclosure prior to contract execution. The form of the Disclosure must be substantially in the same form as identified in the statute.

This statute, while of course names only the "seller" however, are you, the realtor, not a representative of the seller?!

Not to beat a dead horse, but long story short, if realtors did their job & provided documents (whether outdated or not), we the CAMs would not have to deal with irate owners in condos as well as HOAs who had never seen documents ~ true story. Lots of passing the buck & throwing people under the bus, lol.

Here have some fun with this:
As a condo owner, you have to follow the rules of the HOA. You don’t have control over the common areas, you have to pay your monthly dues and assessments, and you have to play by the rules of the condo association. You understood, when you bought the condo, that you’d be subject to certain restrictions.

But you, like most sellers and their real estate agents, probably aren’t aware about the potential red flags an HOA can cause until the condo has a buyer with a contract to purchase and that buyer can’t get a loan because of the HOA issues.

The red flags typically show up in the Condo Cert (also known as a Condo Questionnaire) document. The Condo Cert, required by the buyer’s lender, assists banks in assessing the health and financial status of the HOA. They want to be sure there is minimal risk in lending on a condo in the HOA.

The Condo Cert is standard practice when underwriting a home loan. The HOA’s management company, or an HOA representative if the condo complex is self-managed, normally completes the Condo Cert once the property is in escrow.

This is where the deal can fall apart. Many times, a seller has no idea about the HOA details. Most real estate agents, buyers or sellers don’t think about it in advance. But as lending standards have tightened, what appear to be small things can really mess up a deal. That’s why, if you’re a seller, it’s important to do some work ahead of time.



Here are three red flags that can pop up in the Condo Cert — and can screw up the sale of your condo.

1. The Ratio of Homeowners to Tenants is Out of Whack

All banks believe a condo complex or building occupied primarily by homeowners is less risky than one with a lot of rental units. The theory is that homeowners who live in their property are more likely to take good care of it and take an active interest in maintaining common areas than someone who’s simply renting the condo.

As a result, most lenders may not give a buyer a loan if the complex has too high a ratio of tenants to owners. Too often, the seller and the buyer have no idea how many renters are in the complex until the Condo Cert is completed and distributed. The problem has only been exacerbated in recent years because many homeowners who needed to sell for financial reasons couldn’t get the equity they needed and were forced to rent.
2. One Person Owns Multiple Units

Another potential problem that shows up in the Condo Cert is when one person owns multiple units in the complex. Lenders don’t like this scenario because if that owner defaults on his or her HOA dues or files bankruptcy, the financial effect on the HOA’s finances can be drastic.

When the real estate market heated up in the early-mid 2000s, investors and developers built lots of new condo buildings. Then, as the market slowed and prices fell, they were forced to rent many of their properties. When there’s a large percentage of renters in a complex and many of those units are owned by the same person, potential buyers of units in that complex will likely find it doubly difficult to get loans.

3. There’s Not Enough Money in the Kitty

The HOA’s financial health, described in the Condo Cert, can be another stumbling block. Does the association have enough money in a reserve account to pay for repairs to the roof or other common areas? Is the HOA properly insured? (Some lenders require a minimum of liability insurance in order for them to lend on a condo.)

None of these potential problems alone will necessarily thwart a deal. A successful real estate transaction depends on many factors.. A lender may be more flexible if, for example, the buyer has an excellent credit score and a large down payment. On the other hand, for the first-time buyer with the minimum down payment and a low salary or minimal credit history, a bad HOA situation could be a deal-killer.

Advice to Buyers

Be aware you might hit a snag during the loan process. With the seller’s approval, be prepared to ask the seller to extend the time frame to get your loan approved. In some cases, you may even need to find a different lender, such as a local bank or credit union that would be more flexible than a big bank.Advice to Sellers

You should know as much as possible about the HOA. Ask your HOA president or management company how many renters are in the complex, or if one owner owns more than one unit. Work with your real estate agent to isolate and flag these issues before you go on the market. Otherwise, your days on market will increase. And if you go into contract and then are forced later to put the condo back on the market, your listing looks suspect.

If you think there could be an HOA issue, identify a lender before you go on the market. Work with that mortgage broker or banker to understand what it would take for someone to get a loan to buy your condo. Consider letting those requirements be known up front, either to agents privately or to buyers at an open house who express serious interest. The goal is to save yourself, your agent, the listing agent — and everyone else involved — a lot of time and headache.

[bbronston]

Lady, you are mixing two different things and speaking about them as though they are the same. There is a big difference between a condo association and a home owner association and the law treats both transactions differently. You are also wrong that agents have any responsibility, under the law, to obtain hoa docs for buyers. There just is no such legal requirement. Should we do it anyway? Well, when possible, I think so. We are (in most cases) facilitators as transaction agents so we assist where possible. Are we required by law as you claim? No. You are wrong about this.

Again, condos are different. Entirely different.

[Sunshine Rules]

There is some confusion about the Homeowner's Association/Community Disclosure form that should be a part of any purchase contract if the property is located within a mandatory HOA.

This particular disclosure informs the buyer that as a buyer of the property they will be obligated to be a member of a HOA, that there are recorded restrictive covenants governing the use of properties in the community, that they will be obligated to pay assessments to the association, that failure to pay assessments may result in a lien on the property. It also states the buyer should refer to the covenants and the association governing documents before purchasing the property, these documents are matters of public record and can be obtained from the county record office or developer if not yet recorded.

The disclosure does NOT require the seller to provide a copy of the governing documents to the buyer. It is the buyer's responsibility to obtain the documents unless the parties agree otherwise in writing.



Although some listing agents provide the deed restrictions with their listings, and some buyers agents (such as myself) do suggest to buyers that it's in their best interests to add additional terms to the contract allowing them a period of time to get, review and approve the recorded restrictive covenants for the property, agents are not required to obtain HOA docs for buyers by state statute.

Because HOAs do revise the recorded restrictions from time to time, it's in a buyer's best interest to obtain a copy of the latest version of the documents from the HOA Board or management company instead of the seller as sellers sometimes have the version they received when they purchased the property but not updates.


One other clarification regarding condominiums, most are governed under condominium associations, not HOAs. Sometimes the condo community is governed by both a condo association and also falls under the jurisdiction of a master community HOA (The Meadows is one example of that).

The buyer of a Florida condominium unit from an individual is entitled to receive copies of certain governing documents at the seller’s expense, if the buyer so requests in writing. If such request is made, the buyer may cancel the contract for the sale of a condominium unit within 3 days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays and legal holidays after the contract was executed by the buyer and the buyer has received a current copy of the declaration of condominium, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and rules of the condo association, a copy of the most recent year-end financial report and frequently asked questions and answers document, and a copy of the condominium governance form prepared by the Division of Florida Condominiums.




So, as Bob said, there is a difference between the disclosure requirements for condominiums and mandatory HOAs in Florida.

[upgrader]

This is (one reason) why Florida association living strikes me as such a train wreck. People don't understand the difference between Florida Chapters 718 and 720. Then again, the last time I dealt with them, the Florida DBPR ignored the law and did their own thing. And yet again, I'm guessing most people (and their RE agents) might not have a clue about what they are getting into when buying into an association. OK, the RE agents probably have a clue but might not care as long as they get their commision.

Very sad state of affairs.

[bbronston]

So, upgrader, what do you suggest? Should agents forcibly grab buyers by the neck and force them to read the HOA or condo docs? Should there be a test before closing? I mean, for Pete's sake, you can't make people stop for stop signs, much less read the association documents. Geez...

All we agents can do is make them aware. There's a little thing called individual responsibility. That's why people who read their HOA and/or COA docs, and agree to live by them, have no patience for people who can't be bothered but then want them changed or who complain about them once they run afoul of them. I see the plus and minus of both situations and I'm fine with people wanting a deed restricted/association-enforced neighborhood or not. Makes no difference to me. Just don't tell me I'm not doing my job if someone doesn't want to deal with the information I offer them. I'm not all about the commission check and I don't know any agent who is. That's BS.

[upgrader]

Well, to continue the metaphor (that I regretfully started), we should have government that legislatively grabs agents, and property managers, and association lawyers by the neck to make sure they don't screw up this private association concept.

I'm guessing you are a republican. Hey, I'm still a registered republican (first got to vote in '81, chose Reagan after the unlucky Carter).

The system is broken on both sides. The lack of education of owners/buyers/sellers, and the lack of punishment for wayward association lawyers/property managers/board of directors.

OK, I get it, you consider yourself a used car salesman; caveat emptor. You probably sleep as well at night as the wall street types that ruin people every decade or so.

I'm guessing many real estate agents feel the same way as you do. Which makes it so hard for people like me to try and move to another home.

Originally Posted by bbronston

So, upgrader, what do you suggest? Should agents forcibly grab buyers by the neck and force them to read the HOA or condo docs? Should there be a test before closing? I mean, for Pete's sake, you can't make people stop for stop signs, much less read the association documents. Geez...

All we agents can do is make them aware. There's a little thing called individual responsibility. That's why people who read their HOA and/or COA docs, and agree to live by them, have no patience for people who can't be bothered but then want them changed or who complain about them once they run afoul of them. I see the plus and minus of both situations and I'm fine with people wanting a deed restricted/association-enforced neighborhood or not. Makes no difference to me. Just don't tell me I'm not doing my job if someone doesn't want to deal with the information I offer them. I'm not all about the commission check and I don't know any agent who is. That's BS.

[bbronston]

What a pant load. Now I see...it's not your fault that you can't move, it's the Republicans, the government, the property managers, the directors, the lawyers, the agents, the owners, buyers, & sellers and, I guess, all those evil car salesmen out there. You probably missed a few but I imagine you'll be back to tell me all about it.

BTW.....just because someone thinks that personal responsibility is a good thing, it doesn't make them a Republican. Obviously, you don't subscribe to the notion. Personally, I'm registered as a NPA so you are batting .000 for the day!