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Yeah, they won't choose Manatee because Manatee does not have an IT workforce to speak of. Not because of mass transit.
Mass transit is a potentially good/efficient option in larger cities with decent density that have traffic issues. You're right, though, probably not the best in Sarasota or Manatee.
Florida meanwhile, already has infrastructure issues, and will probably run into more in the future as it has to maintain a mass amount of it with so many people moving here and our continued outward growth.
Two points here.
IT workers are MORE than willing to relocate if the Quality of Life is there. Austin is one example. Of course, they installed rail and a lot of other mass transit. Florida simply doesn't (yet) want or cater to this crowd. It is still the place for old people and tourists and foreign money (drug, russian, s. american and other).
The Tampa Metro Area, which includes Sarasota and Bradenton, are more than large enough to support a decent rail system...heck, look at the developments going in EACH with thousands of homes. Driving back and forth to TPA is a complete nightmare (did it a bunch lately). Can't imagine why they don't have high speed hovercraft from Palmetto to near the Airport and DT Tampa and St. Petes and other such things.
I still maintain that Florida is a densely populated place (and becoming MUCH more so) that still acts as if it is rural. That's called denial in my book. One can't have their cake and eat it too...Florida seems to think that anyone with land has the "rights" to develop it to the furthest possible extent possible...and we see the results.
I don't see this changing except in very limited areas (Tampa MAY end up being one!)...because there is just too much money in being the "playground of the rich and fantasy of the world" (Disney, Universal and everything else).
One of my volunteer gigs involves driving older folks around. Many aren't that old...and still have a car in the driveway. When we are driving and they see these 12 lane roads with 3 turning lanes they comment "I can't drive in this...even if I am able to drive again". They are right. Car Culture is not designed for the very population that pays a lot of the bills in Florida. Weird.
At least ride-sharing services can take some of the stress out of it....but at this point I'm afraid that Florida is always going to lag behind in admission that it is populated. Head in the sand...so to speak. This is unlikely to change because, even with 22+ million people, Florida is not looked at as a multi-generational "home" and neighborhoods where your kids and grandkids are likely to stay. It's like a temporary vacation for those of us with means...and a workplace or a place they are "stuck" for those without.
None of that lines up with the stuff that current successful "new economy" corporations are looking for.
I think, in my lifetime, that Tampa will score some business wins. But they really do have to allow people to get to the airport...what a nightmare.
Well, first of all, I saw not 1 idea/suggestion in your post on how to make things better. You just criticised my ideas and suggestions that I disclaimed as brainstorming. I should just ignore your reply until you added something constructive, but I'll forgive you for not being able to attempt to solve tough problems. I got your back on this...
I'll continue to solve them for you until you get the hang of it. I believe in you.
Nah, not really necessary to have my own solutions in order to point out faults I see in other solutions. It is what it is. But, no, not at all necessary.
But, if you must know, I don't believe there are a lot of solutions. I believe the cat is already out of the bag, and poor planning in the past has made many of the problems fairly unfixable going forward.
Nah, not really necessary to have my own solutions in order to point out faults I see in other solutions. It is what it is. But, no, not at all necessary.
But, if you must know, I don't believe there are a lot of solutions. I believe the cat is already out of the bag, and poor planning in the past has made many of the problems fairly unfixable going forward.
No worries...at least you were honest about your position, and we know where you stand. You failed to criticise my most recent ideas, so I'll take that as a positive sign.
IT workers are MORE than willing to relocate if the Quality of Life is there. Austin is one example. Of course, they installed rail and a lot of other mass transit. Florida simply doesn't (yet) want or cater to this crowd. It is still the place for old people and tourists and foreign money (drug, russian, s. american and other).
The Tampa Metro Area, which includes Sarasota and Bradenton, are more than large enough to support a decent rail system...heck, look at the developments going in EACH with thousands of homes. Driving back and forth to TPA is a complete nightmare (did it a bunch lately). Can't imagine why they don't have high speed hovercraft from Palmetto to near the Airport and DT Tampa and St. Petes and other such things.
I still maintain that Florida is a densely populated place (and becoming MUCH more so) that still acts as if it is rural. That's called denial in my book. One can't have their cake and eat it too...Florida seems to think that anyone with land has the "rights" to develop it to the furthest possible extent possible...and we see the results.
I don't see this changing except in very limited areas (Tampa MAY end up being one!)...because there is just too much money in being the "playground of the rich and fantasy of the world" (Disney, Universal and everything else).
One of my volunteer gigs involves driving older folks around. Many aren't that old...and still have a car in the driveway. When we are driving and they see these 12 lane roads with 3 turning lanes they comment "I can't drive in this...even if I am able to drive again". They are right. Car Culture is not designed for the very population that pays a lot of the bills in Florida. Weird.
At least ride-sharing services can take some of the stress out of it....but at this point I'm afraid that Florida is always going to lag behind in admission that it is populated. Head in the sand...so to speak. This is unlikely to change because, even with 22+ million people, Florida is not looked at as a multi-generational "home" and neighborhoods where your kids and grandkids are likely to stay. It's like a temporary vacation for those of us with means...and a workplace or a place they are "stuck" for those without.
None of that lines up with the stuff that current successful "new economy" corporations are looking for.
I think, in my lifetime, that Tampa will score some business wins. But they really do have to allow people to get to the airport...what a nightmare.
You make some great points here. Ive also noticed that Florida is very densely populated in many areas, but there is still a very suburban mentality. What you end up with is a lot of things that are very close together but take a bafflingly long time to get to. It's almost people intentionally spaced everything out in the least efficient way possible. I think this is true in many cities though.
Florida still by and large needs to shed it's transient identity. People see it as a place to retire or a place to spend a few years and move back. I think this mindset is starting to change though.
However, I think people are fooling themselves if they think that lack of light rail and public transit is why companies like Amazon would pass up on our area. They decided to put a hub in Nashville which is the sprawliest, least transit friendly place Ive ever seen. Austin light rail is not amazing and lacks any kind of significant coverage. Same with Houston and Dallas. No no, companies don't locate to Tampa Bay because of their lack of educated and specialized workforce. It maybe is getting a little better, but it still lags far behind any metro of comparable size.
I agree with a lot of your points, I just think your generalizing on the "public transit will fix all of our problems" idea. Which it will not. It might help if we already set ourselves up as an IT or specialized job hub. But not by itself.
Don't get me wrong, We should still get public transit. It just won't fix the underlying issue. There's potential though. And like you, Im never going to be on the side of car culture just as a general principle.
The car culture of Tampa Bay isn't going to transformed into a pedestrian or even a "mass transit" culture - it's not part of the region's DNA. We're NOT NYC, DC not Chicago or anywhere else. Even recent efforts in vehicular driven place like LA and Houston to fundamentally "shift" to mass transit have failed (e.g. bullet train in CA).
The South in general has no history in embracing people riding bicycles to work either - not in sprawled environments such as Atlanta, booming Nashville, hilly Birmingham or flat Memphis. In fact in some of these southern metros, mass/public transportation is ineffective, slow, and subcultural/ghetto.
Car cultures aren't easily dissuaded....nor should it be a zero-sum proposition for a citizen of any city.
Look, families with mobile and socially engaged children aren't going to Publix or soccer practice on a BUS or light rail. They aren't going to give up freedom of movement and depend on a third party for their own mobility.
This fact about freedom, frustrates the hell out of leftist, communal urban planners who are hellbent on thwarting suburban living in favor of developing the urban core and high density living replete with social engineering concepts which attempt to redefine personal "choice" and freedom. They are trying to accomplish a social and political goal through a deliberate attempt to alter, ergo transform the "built city".
Sorry....this effort to "demobilize" American car and truck owners through a restructuring of transportation will have limited success in Tampa-Northport-Sarasota-Manatee-Lee and Collier.
The car culture of Tampa Bay isn't going to transformed into a pedestrian or even a "mass transit" culture - it's not part of the region's DNA. We're NOT NYC, DC not Chicago or anywhere else. Even recent efforts in vehicular driven place like LA and Houston to fundamentally "shift" to mass transit have failed (e.g. bullet train in CA).
The South in general has no history in embracing people riding bicycles to work either - not in sprawled environments such as Atlanta, booming Nashville, hilly Birmingham or flat Memphis. In fact in some of these southern metros, mass/public transportation is ineffective, slow, and subcultural/ghetto.
Car cultures aren't easily dissuaded....nor should it be a zero-sum proposition for a citizen of any city.
Look, families with mobile and socially engaged children aren't going to Publix or soccer practice on a BUS or light rail. They aren't going to give up freedom of movement and depend on a third party for their own mobility.
This fact about freedom, frustrates the hell out of leftist, communal urban planners who are hellbent on thwarting suburban living in favor of developing the urban core and high density living replete with social engineering concepts which attempt to redefine personal "choice" and freedom. They are trying to accomplish a social and political goal through a deliberate attempt to alter, ergo transform the "built city".
Sorry....this effort to "demobilize" American car and truck owners through a restructuring of transportation will have limited success in Tampa-Northport-Sarasota-Manatee-Lee and Collier.
Ain't going to happen anytime soon, if ever.
It is also lost on the car lover who thinks that roads should only be designed for them. Doesn't sound very free to me. Or are you attempting to redefine it?
Also, all those cities you mentioned...are liberal. Nashville voted down an expensive light rail recently. So I think your left/right logic is flawed by definition. Many people ride bikes to work in those cities. Several are mentioned here: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a2...e-cities-2018/
Including Memphis which you called out.
Also, Sarasota's urban planners already do a lot of these things, they tend to be relatively proactive at addressing them. And people will give something up when a sensible alternative exists. Convenience is a part of the free market.
Let's not lob insults as both sides are typically at fault on this. Also, I bike to work, so I don't want to pay for your roads. It doesn't sound very fair to make me pay for them seeing as Im not actually getting any value out of them, right?
It'll start to happen when those houses in exurbs out in Lakewood Ranch start losing value because people don't want to sit in 2 hour traffic to get to work. Im fine with letting the free market do its job. I give it maybe 20 years.
Last edited by kombuchaluchador; 02-24-2019 at 12:13 PM..
It is also lost on the car lover who thinks that roads should only be designed for them. Doesn't sound very free to me. Or are you attempting to redefine it?
It'll start to happen when those houses in exurbs out in Lakewood Ranch start losing value because people don't want to sit in 2 hour traffic to get to work. Im fine with letting the free market do its job. I give it maybe 20 years.
Yeah, it's funny when people take up "debate sides" like "I love the freedom of MORE AND MORE air pollution, more wars for oil and especially more motor oil running into our streams and waters. You can pry this inefficient two ton thingy what I sit in traffic in (assuming I don't get hurt or die in it) out of my cold dead hands"........
It won't be me doing those commutes...and, yes, you are correct in that a lot of surprises are coming down the pike. Taxes and insurance and other costs will go through the roof...to add to those commutes. At some point a lot of the people here will feel like this guy:
Yeah, it's funny when people take up "debate sides" like "I love the freedom of MORE AND MORE air pollution, more wars for oil and especially more motor oil running into our streams and waters. You can pry this inefficient two ton thingy what I sit in traffic in (assuming I don't get hurt or die in it) out of my cold dead hands"........
It won't be me doing those commutes...and, yes, you are correct in that a lot of surprises are coming down the pike. Taxes and insurance and other costs will go through the roof...to add to those commutes. At some point a lot of the people here will feel like this guy:
It is also lost on the car lover who thinks that roads should only be designed for them. Doesn't sound very free to me. Or are you attempting to redefine it?
Also, all those cities you mentioned...are liberal. Nashville voted down an expensive light rail recently. So I think your left/right logic is flawed by definition. Many people ride bikes to work in those cities. Several are mentioned here: https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a2...e-cities-2018/
Including Memphis which you called out.
Also, Sarasota's urban planners already do a lot of these things, they tend to be relatively proactive at addressing them. And people will give something up when a sensible alternative exists. Convenience is a part of the free market.
Let's not lob insults as both sides are typically at fault on this. Also, I bike to work, so I don't want to pay for your roads. It doesn't sound very fair to make me pay for them seeing as Im not actually getting any value out of them, right?
It'll start to happen when those houses in exurbs out in Lakewood Ranch start losing value because people don't want to sit in 2 hour traffic to get to work. Im fine with letting the free market do its job. I give it maybe 20 years.
For the true record, I lived in the Green Hills area (Nashville), and in Germantown (Memphis) and you are dead wrong about the prevalence of bike riders to work in either city, if that's what you're attempting to assert. In fact it's laughable. Both cities are intrinsically car-centric, decentralized/sprawling metros with the Memphis MSA one of the largest most spread out cities (and flat) in the nation. My real-life experience of living in those cities doesn't remotely coincide with your assertion - not even close.
People and true residents/natives of the South don't give up their freedoms and choices just because some other outsider comes up with something THEY believe as a "sensible alternative"....southerners understand the free market for sure, but they think more of their personal "freedom", and most resent being told what to drive, and how to get around. The South isn't DC, or NewYawk, Chicago, or Boston", and it's certainly not NJ.
Contrary to your belief, I've never seen "many" people riding BIKES to work in Nashville and certainly not Memphis, TN (if that was your assertion). Laughable to me.
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