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Old 07-15-2021, 08:48 AM
 
240 posts, read 208,091 times
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As you must know (everybody sorta accepts it NOW), that I.Q. is no indication of success in life as an adult, or if you're a good person, an ethical person, or even a thinking person.


Few people in life ask or even care that much where you attended undergrad, or even law school or even med school - they damn sure don't care where you attended HIGH school....lol....well...sorta, unless you attended the same school that Valerie Jarrett, DeWitt Wallace, Bette Davis, James McLamore, Lee DeForest, Will Ackerman, Natalie Cole, David Hartman, Uma Thurman, Laura Linney, or Frank Shorter....for instance....but that would be "name-dropping".


That would be a wee bit tacky...it would be like me telling you I attended the the same school as David Robinson (2nd son of Jackie), Bill Cosby's kids, Jeff Lorber, Herbie Hancock, Biff Watson, or Condi Rice.


I would never engage in that type of thing.....never.
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Old 07-15-2021, 08:06 PM
 
3,650 posts, read 9,456,843 times
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All the Ivy leagues: Princeton, Harvard, etc - and all the Florida colleges - - my son is just going to FSU - many of them received huge scholarships for academic achievement - but not all - the things that were going into were too many to list - astro physics, etc - STEM - all sorts of sciences that I do not even know what they are - if you want to you can probably find the video of the graduation on-line - 200 students and the principal talked about each of their accomplishments, all the awards they have, where they are going and what they plan to study.

And I agree - no one cares where you went to high school but I believe Pine View prepared the best of the best to handle anything and gave them an edge to compete. Not for status but to make them ready to handle any college.
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Old 07-15-2021, 08:38 PM
 
60 posts, read 61,887 times
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Regarding Question #4, perhaps my son and I would be a case study.

TL;DR: An exceptional child will likely succeed regardless of the school, but social experiences and starting early matter at the highest levels in the workforce. As an alternative to private school, you could do public school with private tutoring.

Quick-ish backstory: When I was a child, I was tested for a G&T program. I tested at 126, which was not good enough to enter the program. I messed around in H.S. A college education was not a priority in my family and we were financially strapped. When my father passed away suddenly, I was 20 years old. Suddenly, I found my motivation -essentially fear - and started applying for schools, and eventually graduated at 25 years old.

When I entered the workforce as a financial researcher (think:Bloomberg or S&P), I was surrounded by peers who were 22 years old, had graduated from Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Cornell, and Princeton, and spoke two languages fluently. So, I figured I couldn't compete with these elites, quit, and went to Japan to teach English. The plan was to learn Japanese and return to get an MBA and "catch up". Instead, I met a Kiwi ex-bond trader in the Japan office of the financial research company I had worked for and ended up spending 17 years building products for investment banks and asset management companies.

In the industry, I was surrounded by elite people from different countries. They typically had attended private schools, often had MBAs (sometimes MBAs with a JD), and often spoke multiple languages. Here are some observations -

-Kids that are exceptional, or relatively higher in intelligence, are likely to do well regardless of the college they attend. There was a WSJ article about this years ago but it would take some digging to find it.

-Notwithstanding the above, there is a social aspect to work and I find that while the work itself is not overly challenging, it's more difficult to "fit in" with the senior level staff. And I would say the senior level staff (I'm talking about the SVP level and above) are typically from elite backgrounds. I could go into great detail on this topic, but in short, keep in mind people hire candidates they can relate to or are similar.

-Some skills are just easier to accomplish if you start young and accumulate knowledge over time. E.g. language skills, math to some extent (try learning linear algebra for the first time in your 30s).

-Personally, I am quite proud of what I've accomplished all things considered, but for years I was frustrated trying to understand my inability to break into the most senior levels. I think the combo of social experiences and learning at a later age had some effect on my career.

My son is growing up quite differently. He attends a Japanese public schoolin Tokyo. He attends an international private school for an additional 4 hours per week specifically for English reading and writing. I'm not concerned about the social experiences at this point because of our travel and our circle of international friends.
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Old 07-16-2021, 09:25 AM
 
240 posts, read 208,091 times
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Pine View is a public Sarasota County school...a decent school.


It ain't a private prep school like Choate, Phillips Andover, Exeter, Hotchkiss, NMH, Brearley, Collegiate, Deerfield, or Groton for example....


Not even the same "type" of student, not even close. Most of these schools are "feeders" to other elite schools all the way to grad school programs.


The "social construct" (generational even) is not comparable and yields vastly different results and "opportunities"....fairly or unfairly so.


Many doors are open to kids because of social interactions ,friendships and family. It's always been that way and probably always will - that's life.



Lots of people get admitted to Harvard, Yale etc that have no business there....lol....lots of generational influence....e.g. Bush, Clinton etc.....and their kids and grandkids....yep, SO WHAT? If I told you I attended the same school as several members of the Koch family (TX), SO WHAT? I'd say that family had more "influence" than mine.


Associations have always been stratified - so are "successes". Happiness need not be, Neither is gratification and personal accomplishment.


We live in a comparative nation and world. We don't have equality of outcomes....and that's a good thing. Many students TODAY are totally squandering their opportunities....it ain't the school's fault in toto.



No public school has an admission charge...neither does a public library. Hard work, self-discipline, and paying attention has nothing to do with IQ. There are students with high IQs that are misfits. There are adults with great schools behind their names that are mediocre intellects.


Looking for guarantees? There aren't any. Providing the "best" education for your kids is no guarantee for anything either...that's a myth.



Know any dropouts that have become successful? I do. Know any eggheads that are losers? I do. Know any poor, unchallenged kids from inner cities that have risen to the TOP ? I do. Know any gifted and talented kids that have killed themselves? I do.


Be thankful.
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Old 07-16-2021, 06:22 PM
 
51 posts, read 48,039 times
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Well, the OP must have read enough, especially about the truth in education.

Schools are tools and vehicles to success - perhaps or perhaps not. Nothing is a given. There is no formula.
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Old 07-16-2021, 07:17 PM
 
9 posts, read 7,631 times
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Thank you again Nancy.


Yukenbo, thanks for sharing. I have a broadly similar experience to yours, with inability to break into senior levels at investment banks. But my conclusion was that senior levels are filled by those who are, and have been for generations, firmly a part of the 1%. I have dealt first hand with many many bank executives who did not know the basics of their job and relied on subordinates like me. The real criteria they fulfilled for entry to the senior levels was 1) their pedigree, and 2) a willingness to protect and defend the power structure that has been in place for generations. The technical skills and experience they lacked can be hired, is easily replaceable, and is therefore disposable. But pedigree and being a 1% insider is priceless.



So I would not blame your experience on your schooling. There's much bigger socio-economic forces acting to keep things that way. The schools and colleges one gets selected into based on talent and IQ is not going to bestow generational pedigree and is therefore useless for "old money" institutions like banks and big corporations. However it hugely matters for the "new money" world of tech entrepreneurship that can someday disrupt the existing power structure.



With countless high quality courses from MIT and other universities now free for anyone in the world, I could give my kids the best education right at home, even in some remote village somewhere in the world where the cost of living is nothing. But children are creatures of their environment. They learn from their ecosystem through osmosis. They need to lively social environment and interactions with other kids. That's the main reason to be in selective schools like Pine View.


The only concern I have is safety. If kids are in an environment where they have to go through a metal detector everyday and do active shooter drills, then that's what they are internalizing, at the expense of other more productive pursuits. And to send your kids to school and not know if they will make it back alive is just uncivilized. That's my number one concern with any school.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukenbo View Post
...for years I was frustrated trying to understand my inability to break into the most senior levels....
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Old 07-17-2021, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Free State of Florida
25,135 posts, read 12,288,110 times
Reputation: 18752
Excellent post, & my personal experiences in Fortune 500 Corp America were precisely the same. I finally wised up, started my own company, & outearned them all so I had the last

The bolded sentence below is key to being invited into the Fortune 500's top 1%. Even if you know you are smarter, and have better ideas, those thoughts must be supressed; until you are CEO or above.

Education is just a small piece of the puzzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaplesDad View Post
Thank you again Nancy.


Yukenbo, thanks for sharing. I have a broadly similar experience to yours, with inability to break into senior levels at investment banks. But my conclusion was that senior levels are filled by those who are, and have been for generations, firmly a part of the 1%. I have dealt first hand with many many bank executives who did not know the basics of their job and relied on subordinates like me. The real criteria they fulfilled for entry to the senior levels was 1) their pedigree, and 2) a willingness to protect and defend the power structure that has been in place for generations. The technical skills and experience they lacked can be hired, is easily replaceable, and is therefore disposable. But pedigree and being a 1% insider is priceless.



So I would not blame your experience on your schooling. There's much bigger socio-economic forces acting to keep things that way. The schools and colleges one gets selected into based on talent and IQ is not going to bestow generational pedigree and is therefore useless for "old money" institutions like banks and big corporations. However it hugely matters for the "new money" world of tech entrepreneurship that can someday disrupt the existing power structure.



With countless high quality courses from MIT and other universities now free for anyone in the world, I could give my kids the best education right at home, even in some remote village somewhere in the world where the cost of living is nothing. But children are creatures of their environment. They learn from their ecosystem through osmosis. They need to lively social environment and interactions with other kids. That's the main reason to be in selective schools like Pine View.


The only concern I have is safety. If kids are in an environment where they have to go through a metal detector everyday and do active shooter drills, then that's what they are internalizing, at the expense of other more productive pursuits. And to send your kids to school and not know if they will make it back alive is just uncivilized. That's my number one concern with any school.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:58 AM
 
51 posts, read 48,039 times
Reputation: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by beach43ofus View Post

Education is just a small piece of the puzzle
.


This has always been true. Being educated or just very smart can mean nothing if you are unable to build relationships that are key to opening doors. I've known other very smart students that have also attended very fine schools like I attended, that are stupid, self-absorbed, mal-adjusted, sloppy, unhappy, belligerent, goofy, obnoxious, anti-social, non-verbal and otherwise employees that have absolutely no social skills and are not very likeable human beings.


Very smart students like this sometimes don't achieve like students of lesser academic prowess. That's nothing new. These very very smart students then go on to assert that they are overlooked in many business models and are not heralded as future model executives.


I've seen and worked with exceptionally gifted technical analysts in the investment securities business, in the IT industry, the pharma sector, the energy industry and in bio-medical research that I would never put in front of clients, Board Members or in management positions of other people.


These types of gifted students and employees are victims of their own devise, but go on to "blame the system".


Academic accomplishment, i.e. education, is indeed a small piece of the puzzle. I would contend it's a very small piece.


Companies can "hire brains" all day long. Most companies seem to prefer smart, capable, but well-rounded total people. Nothing new.



The landscape is littered with educated fools without common sense and without the common touch.That's not going to change - ever.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:58 PM
 
9 posts, read 7,631 times
Reputation: 26
I love the Ben Stiller movie Brad's Status (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5884230). Shows how connections and pulling strings lets you subvert what's nominally a meritocracy.
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Old 07-17-2021, 04:36 PM
 
9 posts, read 7,631 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
stupid, self-absorbed, mal-adjusted, sloppy, unhappy, belligerent, goofy, obnoxious, anti-social, non-verbal and otherwise ... have absolutely no social skills and are not very likeable human beings.
Sounds like all the names that the Vatican and it's millions of followers picked out to describe Galileo, Copernicus, Charles Darwin, etc..... Also what King George III and his band of sycophants called George Washington, Ben Franklin and their band of misfits.


Quote:
Very smart students like this sometimes don't achieve like students of lesser academic prowess.
Back in the 70s and 80s when most individuals had to rely on their local stockbroker to make trades, these "students of lesser academic prowess" made fortunes by skimming because they had "relationships", i.e. cesspools of corruption. Since electronic exchanges leveled the field, the fortunes have gone to the "Very smart students". These transformations will eventually level the playing field in every sphere of every industry. Education will be a bigger and bigger peice of the puzzle and feudal cliques, inheritance, hereditary and pedigree will mean less and less.


Quote:
That's not going to change - ever.
Oh it will change. Look around you.
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