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Good info Mutiny. However I lived in the midlands for years, and neighbors with some k-12 teachers. I have lived in a half dozen states. Pink is right, I feel, based just on anecdotally living there, here, and traveling in NC a lot. It seems like SC invests less than the average state in roads, and K-12 education.
Not sure what you mean by the "average state." I've lived in both Carolinas and Georgia, and now live in NJ and frequently visit Philly (I'm only 15 minutes away) and NYC and I can say that Georgia does the best job with its roads overall, SC is either equal with or has a slight edge on NC especially when it comes to big projects in urban areas (SC widened and resurfaced I-77 in York County a few years before NC did the same in Mecklenburg County and the Cooper River Bridge in Charleston was completed ahead of schedule and under budget; meanwhile Charlotte's I-485 loop isn't completed yet after all these years), and many of the roads up here are just plain TERRIBLE. I understand that more people live up here so there's more strain on the infrastructure but still...sheesh! But SC still needs a lot more work done on its roads, and it took an executive at Michelin making some public comments recently for Gov. Haley to get some more funds flowing to roads.
As far as K-12 education, the vast majority of the South is in the same boat so as I said, it's pretty much a cripple fight at the state level which is just sad (and there are all sorts of intersecting reasons for that, many of which are based on race and class but that's another topic for another day). Here Are The States That Spend The Most On Public School Students The difference comes in at the metropolitan level, and GA and NC have more affluent metros than SC (although SC shares Charlotte with NC, and York County has some of the best schools in metro Charlotte and SC).
Really, Mutie. "GA and NC have more affluent metros than SC". True, Atlanta and Charlotte (and their suburbs) are in a different class, but both GA and NC are far larger, much more populous, and have many more roads and schools to fund than SC does. SC has three very wealthy metros for a small state -- Columbia, Greenville-Spartanburg, Charleston -- and Aiken and Myrtle Beach are affluent, too. All of them outdo GA's 2nd-tier cities in terms of wealth. As for NC, it's larger and its funding needs greater. SC doesn't get a pass. Its public schools are below those of GA and NC, its public colleges and universities definitely below, and the SC roads I traveled last year were absolutely the worst. Nikki Haley dismissed recent criticism about SC's infrastructure and educational attainment, but no one is making either up. Underfunding is part of SC culture -- as is a lack of regulation (as in all the middle-aged SC motorcyclists I've seen riding the interstates without a helmet).
Right on Mason! Nikki was a poor choice for SC. Funding across the board has been gutted. Columbia has a depressing vibe. Interestingly Nathan Deal is on a roll doing good things for Georgia's quality of life. In local education.. Savannah Arts, for example. And we have things like Oatland Island, part of the k12 system. This is what kids on Georgia's coast are doing:
Really, Mutie. "GA and NC have more affluent metros than SC". True, Atlanta and Charlotte (and their suburbs) are in a different class, but both GA and NC are far larger, much more populous, and have many more roads and schools to fund than SC does. SC has three very wealthy metros for a small state -- Columbia, Greenville-Spartanburg, Charleston -- and Aiken and Myrtle Beach are affluent, too. All of them outdo GA's 2nd-tier cities in terms of wealth. As for NC, it's larger and its funding needs greater. SC doesn't get a pass. Its public schools are below those of GA and NC, its public colleges and universities definitely below, and the SC roads I traveled last year were absolutely the worst. Nikki Haley dismissed recent criticism about SC's infrastructure and educational attainment, but no one is making either up. Underfunding is part of SC culture -- as is a lack of regulation (as in all the middle-aged SC motorcyclists I've seen riding the interstates without a helmet).
I'll continue to indulge you, although I have no clue what this has to do with Volvo picking SC--the inferior state in your view--over Georgia.
For NC, it's not just Charlotte, but the Triangle as well. NC and GA are "far larger, much more populous, and have many more roads and schools to fund than SC does" because of those much larger, more affluent metropolitan areas that in turn attract many more jobs and people than SC's metros; you're actually proving my point here. As much as I love my home state, there's no way I can agree that Columbia, Charleston, and Greenville are "very wealthy" metros; that's just not true, and there's no way I'd say that Aiken and Myrtle Beach are affluent overall. They aren't poor, but "affluent" isn't a term I'd use to describe them; that adjective would be best applied to the Hilton Head-Beaufort MSA. Overall, SC's metros do pretty well for themselves, but are more average in that category. Charleston, Columbia, and Greenville outdo Georgia's second-tier cities in terms of wealth because they are larger than all of them. However, the MSAs of Greensboro, Winston-Salem, and Durham--peer metros of SC's three largest--all have larger GDPs and more corporate headquarters and operations than SC's three largest. SC's only F500 headquarters is in the Charlotte metro area (York County) which is very telling in this regard.
Now, I provided objective, verifiable data that demonstrates that SC, NC, and GA--and mostly all Southern states for that matter--are in the same boat as far as funding for schools go and fund their schools at very similar rates. But here's more data for you to chew on: for FY2015, SC increased its spending per pupil by 6.2%, while Georgia's increased by 2.3% and NC's actually decreased by 4.7%. During the recession, from 2008-2012, state and local funding for schools decreased in 35 states and that includes the Carolinas and Georgia; however, SC had a lower rate of decrease (7.7%) compared to Georgia (16.4%) and NC (13.4%). In FY2011, SC spent $8,986 per pupil, compared to GA spending $9,253 per pupil and NC spending $8,312 per pupil (and this is a combination of state, local, and federal funding). As far as public colleges and universities go, the only difference between NC/GA and SC in terms of most rankings is Georgia Tech and UNC. Granted, those are very impactful universities and the difference is indeed palpable, but NC's and GA's other public colleges and universities are more or less on par with SC's.
I also provided objective, verifiable data for roads while you only rely on anecdotes. I've already said that Georgia's road are generally in better condition, and the data I supplied supports that, but it doesn't support your assertion that SC's are the worst you'll find anywhere. And in the way of more data, I ran across a report that actually shows that Georgia spends a bit less on roads per capita than SC does. As a matter of fact, from 2008-2013, Georgia decreased per capita spending for roads by 33% while in SC, it was only by 2.2% (and NC increased it by 19%). And here's another study for your consideration.
Sorry, but the data simply doesn't support your assertion about SC when compared with Georgia and NC. If anything, it shows that there's a culture of underfunding in the South as a whole, and the last time I checked, Georgia and NC are still firmly in the South.
Now again, what does any of this have to do with Volvo picking Charleston over your hometown?
Right on Mason! Nikki was a poor choice for SC. Funding across the board has been gutted. Columbia has a depressing vibe. Interestingly Nathan Deal is on a roll doing good things for Georgia's quality of life. In local education.. Savannah Arts, for example. And we have things like Oatland Island, part of the k12 system. This is what kids on Georgia's coast are doing:
I've addressed your other points in my response to masonbauknight, but what does Columbia's vibe, as you perceive it, have to do with anything? If it's not your type of city, then so be it, but it's booming now even more than it was before the economic downtown. There's tons of new construction downtown, including new residential, hotel, retail, restaurants, and office space and the redevelopment of existing historic properties; Main Street is more vibrant now with all of the new investment that's occurred along that corridor (and the Vista and Five Points are still vibrant areas of activity); the metro area has added more people than any other in Georgia except Atlanta since 2010; and there are new improvements in streets, parks, and greenways that have recently been completed, are planned, or are underway. The entire former state mental health campus (Bull Street) downtown is in the process of being redeveloped, with a new minor league ballpark as the centerpiece (and ironically, the new tenant of that ballpark is rumored to be the Sand Gnats which are supposed to move from Savannah to Columbia). I don't know when you lived there or how long it's been since you've visited, but I don't get the "depressing" thing at all but to each his/her own. But if you guys wish to gloat in being the better state as consolation for Savannah having lost out to Charleston in the past few eco-devo projects, then have at it.
Funding in public education has always been poor in SC, and it had only one way to go: up. My mom moved us to GA (we're all born in SC) because teachers' salaries were abysmal compared to those in GA and NC and still are behind. Yes, of course the entire South has a deserved bad rep in terms of public education, but SC has always been low in terms of educational outcomes compared to other states (and its statewide educational tests of students are known to be very easy to pass). SC is generally considered "down there" in education, i.e., in the realm of Alabama and Mississippi.
I agree about Georgia Tech and UNC, but you failed to mention UGA (more prestigious and much harder to get into than USC), or the fact that most of UNC's campuses other than CH (Charlotte and others) are good, even compared to USC-Columbia and certainly compared to smaller campuses like Beaufort. SC's public universities, even better-ranked Clemson and certainly USC, are not as good as GA's and NC's.
SC promotes a very market-oriented libertarian economy in the state through special tax breaks for business -- and through underfunding of the physical and social infrastructure for its residents. Few of the German bigwigs in Spartanburg care about SC's roads or public education; their kids, if they have them, go to private schools in SC (and will never attend SC's public universities anyway). SC's priority is business and commerce, and it attracts international businesses for that reason. There's little regulation or oversight in the state, so properties are freed up and the cost of doing business is low. This does come at a price, and that price is palpable whenever I visit SC: ratty towns, horrible roads, and a public education system with dumpy schoolhouses and low salaries (and retirement packages) for teachers. SC is Social Darwinist. Perhaps that's why it attracts so many Yankee retirees to Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head with very hard-right politics (of the Ann Coulter-Rush Limbaugh school). But I suppose it's all good for business.
Last edited by masonbauknight; 05-16-2015 at 09:57 AM..
Funding in public education has always been poor in SC, and it had only one way to go: up. My mom moved us to GA (we're all born in SC) because teachers' salaries were abysmal compared to those in GA and NC and still are behind. Yes, of course the entire South has a deserved bad rep in terms of public education, but SC has always been low in terms of educational outcomes compared to other states (and its statewide educational tests of students are known to be very easy to pass). SC is generally considered "down there" in education, i.e., in the realm of Alabama and Mississippi.
I agree about Georgia Tech and UNC, but you failed to mention UGA (more prestigious and much harder to get into than USC), or the fact that most of UNC's campuses other than CH (Charlotte and others) are good, even compared to USC-Columbia and certainly compared to smaller campuses like Beaufort. SC's public universities, even better-ranked Clemson and certainly USC, are not as good as GA's and NC's.
SC promotes a very market-oriented libertarian economy in the state through special tax breaks for business -- and through underfunding of the physical and social infrastructure for its residents. Few of the German bigwigs in Spartanburg care about SC's roads or public education; their kids, if they have them, go to private schools in SC (and will never attend SC's public universities anyway). SC's priority is business and commerce, and it attracts international businesses for that reason. There's little regulation or oversight in the state, so properties are freed up and the cost of doing business is low. This does come at a price, and that price is palpable whenever I visit SC: ratty towns, horrible roads, and a public education system with dumpy schoolhouses and low salaries (and retirement packages) for teachers. SC is Social Darwinist. Perhaps that's why it attracts so many Yankee retirees to Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head with very hard-right politics (of the Ann Coulter-Rush Limbaugh school). But I suppose it's all good for business.
There's entirely too much outdated information and flat-out inaccuracies here to correct (I had lots of links to post to counter them too), but here's what it all boils down to: outside of Atlanta, Georgia is pretty much in the same boat as SC in every way, and SC's largest cities are doing a lot better than Georgia's second-tier cities. You want to wage this state vs state war because it pains you to admit that your hometown in particular has been losing even more ground to Charleston in recent years (and even its port is once again busier; the fastest-growing in the country as a matter of fact). Sorry to tell you, but slamming SC in this forum won't do anything to turn the tide here in favor of Savannah. Georgia has had some pretty significant eco-devo projects over the past couple of years--Kia, Caterpillar, Baxter, etc.--but don't get mad at SC because none of them went towards the coast.
And I find it rather amusing that in the previous post, you said that SC's cities were very wealthy and affluent and here, you're painting the picture that SC is America's version of Somalia. But I guess that's the lengths some have to go to in order to make sense of the reality of the situation here.
This thread is sad. I've never seen people so upset that they didn't get something. Trying as hard as you can to slander South Carolina to make you losing Volvo look like not a big deal. What does education have to do with anything? This thread was toxic from the start, when Savannah Life said "looks like they aren't too happy." Go back and look at the thread you linked. No one said they were unhappy or unappreciative of 4,000 jobs. You're trying to make it look like "well, SC doesn't even want the plant, they shouldve came to Georgia." Then when I call you out on it, your response? "Well good luck with more traffic!" Pathetic. And you really have no room to talk when you have Atlanta (which I love) up the road. And Savannah has its fair share of jams as well.
Mason even though Mutiny77 keeps giving you statistical data, you keep spewing the same nonsense over and over and over. What does teacher salaries have to do with a plant? Absolutely nothing. But since you keep on insisting, why dont you go back and do research? NC is not where you want to be if you are a teacher and thats common knowledge. In the 2014 rankings, SC ranked 45th for teachers while NC ranked 51st. GA was 33rd, but take away Atlanta and where do you stand? Probably right next to us. You repeated dribble about SC's colleges is wrong too. Clemson is nationally known for engineering and USC has the best business school in the nation. College of Charleston, Furman, Winthrop, etc are all respected colleges as well that have some stellar schools. Withrop for instance is a great school for aspiring teachers, and CofC is where you want to go for hospitality tourism or international business. CofC's study abroad program is ranked 15th nationally. CofC's faculty also ranked #1 in the world for CGBP, if you even know what that is.
US News had Georgia and Clemson tied at #62. So if Clemson is deplorable, so is UGA. USC was #113, was GT #35. But what are the rest of the GA's schools doing? GA Southern, GA State, Savannah State? GA Southern, GA State, and Sav State wasnt even ranked, but CofC was #13 college of the south, Winthrop #25 of the south, and even Coastal managed #57. Emory U managed #21 nationally so thats good. But heres the thing about all these rankings...theyre subjective. USC may be way below GT, but if you want to be a business major, what school works better? USC. Emory is fine at #21, but if you're trying to be a chef, what good is Emory going to do for you? And then the rankings US News give may be different than someone else. It's all subjective and you can't use it as a definite metric.
Same with public schools. SC may not have the best public schools, but you can't generalize it. My high school was still ranked in the top 5% in the country, one of the best in the state, and my middle and elementary school were highly lauded and the elementary and high is now IB certified. My cousin went to the school across town that has a lot worse ranks, but where is she now? About to graduate from Stanford graduate school next month. And again, as Mutiny said, this is a regional problem. GA and NC have their problems as well. Even with the Triangle and Charlotte, NC is still at the same level as SC. But again, this doesn't have much to do with Volvo.
Youre obviously being sensational on the roads as well. Because GA and NC have roads of gold while SC has roads of s---, okay. And all the roads up north are gold as well... Mutiny already gave you stats, but yet again...you choose to ignore. You criticlize SC's highway, but what about Atlanta's congestion. You talk about Haley, but what is Nathan Deal doing about that? Have you seen the highways around Savannah? Have you rid on 516 or 16? I'm sure GA and NC's rural towns don't look much different than SC's. I'm sure Texas' rural towns don't look much different SC's. Theyre neglected everywhere, hence why they look how they do.
This thread is sad. So much hate all out of jealousy. Nothing else. Go to the North Carolina forum, theyve moved on, but no here we have to keep beating the horse with it. But you can't change bias, so why even try...
Don't get upset those boys are just ribbing you, having a little fun, and seeing if they can get anybody to write a 7 paragraph response. Relax, there're not finished yet, you only wrote 6 paragraphs.
Clemson is nationally known for engineering and USC has the best business school in the nation.
Just a slight correction here: USC has the best international business program in the country, which is still nothing to sneeze at.
Quote:
US News had Georgia and Clemson tied at #62. So if Clemson is deplorable, so is UGA.
Precisely. As I said before, only GA Tech and UNC make the difference as far as public universities compared to SC and he knows that. He actually tried to use UNC-Charlotte to one-up schools in SC, which is somewhat laughable.
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