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I see rancor and division because some choose that over a productive conversation that talks about actionable steps. It's not actionable to say that Black single mothers should stop having babies. It's also not actionable to say that the system jails too many people of color. Both of those statements may be true, but it serves no purpose to say so, other than to cause additional rancor and division. Deal with it. You're not being productive.
White women, not just men. Let's see how much better blacks can live when they don't have a systematic boot on their backs, and when whites don't instantly and hysterically react with defensiveness as you are doing here when it is pointed out.
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Oh ... And the well-documented history of repeat convicted felons going in and out of the system obviously don't give a damn about taking care of their children and "baby mamas." Nice try, though.
There are plenty of SUCCESSFUL EDUCATED CONSERVATIVE black people in this country who don't buy into your tripe, thank god. And as time goes on, there will only be more. It can't happen fast enough.
How about this, maybe if you would learn to be just a little more sensitive in how you talk about race, maybe you wouldn't have to be so paranoid about being accused of racism. This should not be a difficult concept.
Oh, and since you mentioned conservative blacks, why don't you go find some blacks' approval ratings of Ben Carson or any of the other token conservative blacks.
I'm not exactly sure how this conversation is productive, either. Speaking in generalities about huge swaths of socio-economic groups, race baiting, and political warfare isn't really going to solve anything or prove that you're right somehow. You guys can feel whatever you want about all that stuff. However, the truth is neither of you are proposing anything helpful at all. Grow up, don't group up. Contribute to the conversation - toward a real solution, because lord knows, we don't need this kind of angst heaped on a whole lot of inaction. That's a recipe for ruin.
Am I the only one who doesn't see rancor, division and "more guns," as anything close to a solution?
You didn't use any quote tags, so I'm not sure whether this was indirectly addressed at me or not. But if it was, if you are looking for specifics, I would be more than happy to provide a few off.
Sigh. I'm looking for specifics about what we can do, not what kind of names we can call one another.
Alright. In the short run, what kind of budget does Savannah have for increasing the size of the police force, and having them patrol on foot more often? If it is tight, I know that there have been federal grants for this sort of thing, and perhaps it might be time to lobby for one. It seems that this, plus some of the reforms that police accountability groups have been calling for--mandatory body cameras, clarifying exactly when lethal force is allowed, community policing, etc.--could smooth relations between police and neighborhoods of people of color. This distrust for the police is a major reason why gangs are allowed to thrive, BTW. Another reason is...
Ending the War on Drugs would go a long ways. Georgia finally approved medicinal marijuana this year, but they ought to go full-stop and decriminalize recreational marijuana use for adults. This would keep some nonviolent offenders out of our prison system, as well as minimize the economic loss on families for having so many men taken into custody for so long. It shouldn't be the business of the state to tell us what we can do with our own bodies, so long as we do not infringe on the rights of others in the process.
Also, there should be a thorough review of probation and punishments of petty violations. Racking up fines and court fees simply for speeding tickets and petty citations is a real problem for people who cannot afford them. And when a poor person has to endure that, then the choice of whether to eat or pay the gas bill becomes even more difficult, putting further economic strain on poor communities. This, for example, is a problem and should not fly in the year 2015.
Schools. A major reason why schools are not improving, or when they do, that improvement runs into an invisible wall, is that for some reason, teachers as a group are not listened to enough. I am not saying do everything the teachers want; I am just saying that we need to listen to them more. One major concern that teachers typically have in struggling schools is classroom behavior. We need to have some honest conversations here about how we can encourage struggling students to behave better and to swiftly redirect those who do not. Note that making sure they have decent food is a big issue; hungry students are at a higher risk of misbehaving or performing poorly in schools.
Then there are other factors. Improving walkability and transit systems is one. So is ensuring a tax system that is not too high to scare off businesses, but not too low that it threatens the budget. Increase the depth of the Port of Savannah, if it hasn't been done already: that port is a job engine not just for Savannah but the entire state.
And that is a start. There are many other potential solutions. But the key here is to be proactive, to collectively own the problem, to listen to each other when we talk (but not to those who shout and try to dominate the conversation), and to see if we can come up with practical solutions that may not please some individuals but make the community as a whole a better place.
Now about that tragic drive-by shooting that started this discussion. When you free up police to go after violent offenders instead of recreational pot smokers, when you free up prisons to hold the former instead of the latter, when you have healthier neighborhoods and better schools that check institutional poverty, when you have fair court systems, when all of these and many other things are done, then, over time, you get real, practical results. You decrease the number of violent criminals and start to isolate the ones that remain. Now I don't expect all of these proposals to get unanimous support; it seems that in a day and age when even securing funding for road maintenance is a political issue, just about everything is split along party lies. But we need to get over that. We need to start somewhere. Human lives depend on it.
Now that's more like it, Toll Booth. Thanks for a constructive post! Although I agree with many of the suggestions for their merit, a fair number of them are out of our leaders' immediate purview, and also not especially first in the chronological timeline of what I think the most prudent solution will be.
I'm not sure if you're local, but you should know our Chief of Police is Black (as was his crooked predecessor who is now serving time), and so are the majority of our town council, including the Mayor herself (and the previous two) and the past two City Managers. In short, the powers that be are Black in Savannah proper, and have been for quite some time. With over 57% of the city consisting of African Americans, and a poverty rate of 26% (jumping to over 50% in some neighborhoods), things are bleak. These politicians, elected by their racially similar constituents, have failed them. So, I believe that's where some of what you're interpreting as out-and-out racism in this thread is coming from - the plain facts are just that.
Poverty is a growing problem. Suzanne Donovan, the Deputy Director for Step Up Savannah (an organization that is dedicated to this issue), calls it our city's "defining issue." Poverty and drugs are dictating things on the street. This leadership has failed at addressing issues that could lift people out of poverty, give them hope, and provide a way out. They continue to hide in their chambers, discussing endlessly, and not executing. It's not the only issue they've sat on their hands over. Just read Bill Dawer's article from yesterday's paper to get the gist. The leadership is completely impotent, and not enough people are stepping up.
BTW, the harbor is being deepened - and although that's not a locally governed item either, it just started last week.
The city is down over 100 police officers, they have the budget for them. The biggest issue is many of the police officers go through the academy and stay for a one or two years then go to either a better paying or easier police department.
Agree legalization of weed would help. Colorado has shown the way, the issue is state politicians don't want to rock the boat of their voting blocks which are usually old people.
The last part you wrote about why police go after non-violent vs. violent offenders is a bit more complicated but it mainly goes back to stats. The Wire addresses this and it shows why politicians are part of the problem too. The major focus of the show was setting up wire taps on major drug players who were responsible for the majority of the murders in Baltimore. The story came from a multi year wire tap run run by a special unit within the Baltimore PD. Here is the issue the investigation produced no arrests for over a year but had a budget of several million dollars. The police commissioner under pressure from the politicians on any night can send out the police and arrest 20 to 30 low level corner boys and come up with a couple of guns and some drugs. This can be done on a normal budget. The difference is this doesn't effect overall crime but people look good as the local news will announce this crime crackdown.
I really don't think this is the place/forum to speak against the basic teachings of the Catholic church.
In just 2 or 3 posts you have brought to the table: Death penalty, birth control, (and birth control education in a public school), sending the poor off to die somewhere else, the uselessness of a single parent, and more.
I think you're a nice guy, but when you get on a roll I think you strike out without giving it some thought and sensitivity. Calm down, where all in this together.
Except for these two exact issues I think I agree with everything Pope Francis has said and done and admire him greatly. I have thought long and hard about these things. We are not all in it together, clearly. If only we were. You are right it is not just the parents/family but also the neighborhood ie it takes a village. I said nothing about the poor I specified convicted murderers, and even then, for a second conviction. Think about that. Second conviction murderers. We will send them to a few years in jail (let's be realistic sentences are never served not even halfway).. It is not working. They get out and kill again. What would you sentence them to? What is your alternative?
I'm all for the safety net. I volunteer plenty and vote liberal always because I think the financial aspect of progressive taxation outweighs any social issues where I feel more libertarian. But we have a choice: keep doing the same thing, or do something different. If anyone has better ideas I'm ready to listen. I also believe that the positives are actually more important. More teachers and police with better pay is more important than execution. But I think both are valid. But realize that even if we have success with the kids growing up today, there are plenty of adults out there that have murdered and will do so again. I see only three ways to prevent them from murdering again: 1. execute 2. life in prison (isn't that less humane?) 3. deport (again, ethically questionable, I already admitted this) It just seems like option 1 is the must humane for all, to me anyway.
Alright. In the short run, what kind of budget does Savannah have for increasing the size of the police force, and having them patrol on foot more often? If it is tight, I know that there have been federal grants for this sort of thing, and perhaps it might be time to lobby for one. It seems that this, plus some of the reforms that police accountability groups have been calling for--mandatory body cameras, clarifying exactly when lethal force is allowed, community policing, etc.--could smooth relations between police and neighborhoods of people of color. This distrust for the police is a major reason why gangs are allowed to thrive, BTW. Another reason is...
Ending the War on Drugs would go a long ways. Georgia finally approved medicinal marijuana this year, but they ought to go full-stop and decriminalize recreational marijuana use for adults. This would keep some nonviolent offenders out of our prison system, as well as minimize the economic loss on families for having so many men taken into custody for so long. It shouldn't be the business of the state to tell us what we can do with our own bodies, so long as we do not infringe on the rights of others in the process.
Also, there should be a thorough review of probation and punishments of petty violations. Racking up fines and court fees simply for speeding tickets and petty citations is a real problem for people who cannot afford them. And when a poor person has to endure that, then the choice of whether to eat or pay the gas bill becomes even more difficult, putting further economic strain on poor communities. This, for example, is a problem and should not fly in the year 2015.
Schools. A major reason why schools are not improving, or when they do, that improvement runs into an invisible wall, is that for some reason, teachers as a group are not listened to enough. I am not saying do everything the teachers want; I am just saying that we need to listen to them more. One major concern that teachers typically have in struggling schools is classroom behavior. We need to have some honest conversations here about how we can encourage struggling students to behave better and to swiftly redirect those who do not. Note that making sure they have decent food is a big issue; hungry students are at a higher risk of misbehaving or performing poorly in schools.
Then there are other factors. Improving walkability and transit systems is one. So is ensuring a tax system that is not too high to scare off businesses, but not too low that it threatens the budget. Increase the depth of the Port of Savannah, if it hasn't been done already: that port is a job engine not just for Savannah but the entire state.
And that is a start. There are many other potential solutions. But the key here is to be proactive, to collectively own the problem, to listen to each other when we talk (but not to those who shout and try to dominate the conversation), and to see if we can come up with practical solutions that may not please some individuals but make the community as a whole a better place.
Now about that tragic drive-by shooting that started this discussion. When you free up police to go after violent offenders instead of recreational pot smokers, when you free up prisons to hold the former instead of the latter, when you have healthier neighborhoods and better schools that check institutional poverty, when you have fair court systems, when all of these and many other things are done, then, over time, you get real, practical results. You decrease the number of violent criminals and start to isolate the ones that remain. Now I don't expect all of these proposals to get unanimous support; it seems that in a day and age when even securing funding for road maintenance is a political issue, just about everything is split along party lies. But we need to get over that. We need to start somewhere. Human lives depend on it.
toll_both I agree completely.
If you jail someone unable to pay a speeding ticket...then their court fees they can't pay... they perhaps decide to break into your house to steal your tv to pay the fines. If you jail a kid for smoking pot they go into jail a kid and come out hardened up ready to kill. If we don't treat addicts but instead throw them out onto the street they wander, and to scrounge up money for drugs maybe they rob you and if things get out of hand they shoot you.. All studies in unintended consequences. I usually think 'conservatives' worsen all of these things greatly. They want a war on drugs but not a penny for real addiction treatment. They want to be tough on crime so they throw kids into jail for smoking pot once or throw someone in jail for an unpaid parking ticket or speeding ticket. Then they complain when crime happens. They also want to cut budgets. But don't worry, cops and teachers will work more hours for less, right? Meanwhile half our national budget goes to the military, not enough to veterans care or to actual men and women that serve but to expensive contractors like Dick Cheney's Halliburton. How about we divert that money to schools and public safety. Perhaps lower federal spending and increase local spending.
Anyway very well-thought post toll_both. I am also ready to listen.. I am wondering, are there any cities that had a violent crime wave and successfully got it lowered? How? The only one that comes to mind is NYC and I guess through stop and frisk which I have mixed feelings about. But I specifically wonder about examples of cities of our size. It is probably dubious to take something that worked in a city the size of NYC and expect it to work in a much smaller city.
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Agree legalization of weed would help. Colorado has shown the way, the issue is state politicians don't want to rock the boat of their voting blocks which are usually old people.
mhm.. right. I am actually quite enjoying this conversation here. It seems most people clam up and mentally shut out when it comes to 'politics', but all politics is, is public issues. If the public doesn't participate things will not get better. Tragedy of the commons..Again, I wish I knew the answer to getting people to care...I sure don't though. :/
I also wanted add, those with even minor criminal records, like smoking pot once, are basically permanently barred from getting good jobs. We should think about this. Some kind of way of reverting background to a clean slate after so many years, for such minor offenses, ie nonviolent, like shoplifting, pot, etc. As it stands now, it condemns those with records to life in poverty. In which case, again, they may go on a robbery spree. We have put too many in prison and we are not forgiving enough actually for the majority of offenders who are nonviolent!
Last edited by SavannahLife; 09-28-2015 at 07:42 AM..
Coastal poverty is good, because it allows hotels to have a fertile crop of The Poors to keep slaving away in the hotels. Developers bribe... sorry, contribute to... city council and Edna Jackson, to keep it this way.
We need good middle class jobs here in the city. But it's kind of catch22 because before that can happen we need public safety.
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