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Old 05-23-2012, 10:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian.Pearson View Post
We have a whole air force bought and paid for but they aren't using it because it was designed for fighter-fighter warfare. So they are just sitting there.
Uninformed are we?

Quote:
The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is a family of single-seat, single-engine, fifth generation multirole fighters under development to perform ground attack, reconnaissance, and air defense missions with stealth capability.[6][7] The F-35 has three main models; the F-35A is a conventional takeoff and landing variant, the F-35B is a short take off and vertical-landing variant, and the F-35C is a carrier-based variant.
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe I have your post wrong, which country are you from?

I know of no country that has aircraft that are exclusively fighter-fighter, the United States has roughly 5,600 fighter aircraft and definitely none of those "are just sitting there"... If a specific tool (aircraft) is not required it is not used...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_aircraft

If you happen to be talking about the F-22 Raptor it is a tool designed for a specific purpose, air superiority against any foreign aircraft (not just fighters) and there were only 147 built.

Last edited by plwhit; 05-23-2012 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 05-23-2012, 10:32 AM
 
13,138 posts, read 37,306,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey View Post
I'm involved in aviation parts requisition and I can tell you that it's a huge issue in the industry, and the chinese parts can be very difficult to spot. In fact, most of my time working in corporate aviation parts was spent researching parts and verifying serial numbers to make sure that the parts we bought (which were airworthiness approved) were real. They've actually caught a number of people counterfeiting 8130 forms to sell junk parts on the market, or people who grab parts out of dumpsters and resell them as 'serviceable'.

This isn't as cut and dry as people want to make it.

In addition, when your budget is constantly going down down down you can be forced to buy from less than savory brokers which increases the possibility that the part will be counterfeit. When a decent part costs $15,000 on the open market, but the bossman tells you that you have a $7000 budget what do you do? You don't buy the part, the plane doesn't fly and the company loses money, you do buy the part and you're full of anxiety about it because it was cheap. Either way, you're screwed.
Yeap i get all what you're alluding too however what fumes me is that i thought that we were well past the days of the $700 toilet seat's, $300 hammer's and the $25 screws etc.
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
5,418 posts, read 11,469,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3 View Post
Yeap i get all what you're alluding too however what fumes me is that i thought that we were well past the days of the $700 toilet seat's, $300 hammer's and the $25 screws etc.
You are right about the fact that we should be past the 700 toilet seat, 300 hammer and 25 bolt, although I suspect that it might still go on, due to the human greed, we sadly all possess.
Like *jetjockey*, I too was in that business, and I know what he is talking about, when it comes to parts that are *ready made* such as bolt, nuts and washers (as a simple statement).
When jetjockey talks a bout a 15k item, he is not talking about toilet seats but he is talking about complete systems or components, such as valves or actuators as an example. It is really difficult to determine if the rework done is legit or not. Especially in systems, even one *fake* bolt, can ruin a whole airplane. Our job is *on the line*, wether it is from keeping within the budget or making sure everything is truly certified ...
Everything we buy, has to have a CC and they are easily faked.
So, we are definitively NOT *alluding* to a *problem*.
There is nothing *alleged* here. Take it from the guys who are constantly on the edge of their seats.

It does not really start in *China* ! It starts at home, when the profit margins start to diminish.
Budgets are cut, but requirements stay the same. From there is is all going downhill when it comes to quality !
We, as end users, are holding just a piece of paper, and you hope it is all legit !
Nuff sed
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Old 05-23-2012, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Texas
5,070 posts, read 9,161,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
Uninformed are we?

Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe I have your post wrong, which country are you from?

I know of no country that has aircraft that are exclusively fighter-fighter, the United States has roughly 5,600 fighter aircraft and definitely none of those "are just sitting there"... If a specific tool (aircraft) is not required it is not used...

Fighter aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you happen to be talking about the F-22 Raptor it is a tool designed for a specific purpose, air superiority against any foreign aircraft (not just fighters) and there were only 147 built.
Yes, the F-22 Raptor. Looks like politics plays a part.
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Old 05-23-2012, 12:28 PM
 
13,138 posts, read 37,306,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irman View Post
You are right about the fact that we should be past the 700 toilet seat, 300 hammer and 25 bolt, although I suspect that it might still go on, due to the human greed, we sadly all possess.
Like *jetjockey*, I too was in that business, and I know what he is talking about, when it comes to parts that are *ready made* such as bolt, nuts and washers (as a simple statement).
When jetjockey talks a bout a 15k item, he is not talking about toilet seats but he is talking about complete systems or components, such as valves or actuators as an example. It is really difficult to determine if the rework done is legit or not. Especially in systems, even one *fake* bolt, can ruin a whole airplane. Our job is *on the line*, wether it is from keeping within the budget or making sure everything is truly certified ...
Everything we buy, has to have a CC and they are easily faked.
So, we are definitively NOT *alluding* to a *problem*.
There is nothing *alleged* here. Take it from the guys who are constantly on the edge of their seats.

It does not really start in *China* ! It starts at home, when the profit margins start to diminish.
Budgets are cut, but requirements stay the same. From there is is all going downhill when it comes to quality !
We, as end users, are holding just a piece of paper, and you hope it is all legit !
Nuff sed
Most of us are clueless about military procurement practices except from what we read in news articles (e.g. brians post) or on shows like 60 Minutes etc. and so thanks from your insider take on it.
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:13 PM
 
15,922 posts, read 17,864,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian.Pearson View Post
Yes, the F-22 Raptor. Looks like politics plays a part.
Why on Earth would we have deployed the F-22 in the Libyan theater?

Just what Gen 5 aircraft would have been flying to bring the F-22 there?

BTW, the article? I wonder why the author is bringing up an article that was posted in the Air Force Times on page 20 in April 2011?

We should be discussing the Chinese and their stealing technology to come up with the farce they call the J-20... Using antique Russian engines, 1960's electronics, no stealth composites and calling it a Gen 5 fighter.....
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:58 AM
 
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
5,418 posts, read 11,469,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
We should be discussing the Chinese and their stealing technology to come up with the farce they call the J-20... Using antique Russian engines, 1960's electronics, no stealth composites and calling it a Gen 5 fighter.....
I wonder if you can really call it *stealing* ... ?
OK ... , let's discuss China !
If you go back in history, China was way ahead in science compared to the *western world*, in the very *old days*. Then they turned *inwards* right before the Ming Dynasty took over, and their developments almost *stopped*.
Today, I think they have realised that it is not a good way to advance (just worrying about what happens at home, and building humoungous big long walls to keep everybody else out), so they are now trying to catch up as fast as they can.
While doing that, they make *dumb mistakes* and produce some weird stuff.
My prognosis is that they *will* catch up, and we, as the *western world* will end up only servicing, what they produce. As a matter of fact often that is already what we are doing, and trying to make money that way !!!

Case in point:
I have a *made in China* digital camera. Just recently, I fell forward on the beach, and the camera was *open* and now is *non-operating* aka kaput ! Initial cost of the camera was 149 USD (on sale). Inkley repair cost estimate = 169.95 USD !!! Uhmmm .... what the heck ???

Quality of their (the Chinese) work, needs a lot of improvement, but I know, they will learn, and then we, *the western world*, better figure out how to compete again. Something we have forgotten how to do properly ! Altho, some of their stuff is almost State of the Art !

I am not advocating to be a pro-Chinese person, but you have to be realistic and realise what *we* are doing !

When it comes to *fake* stuff, all *WE* have to do is say *NO, dammit* !!
But do we ??? As long as the *greed* is there, and seems more important than *quality*, then the Chinese will continue to *feed* that greed we have !!
I am just as guilty as anybody else, when it comes to *saving* money, in my purchases.

Oh ... , I was so pi$$ed at the Inkley cost proposal, I tinkered with the camera myself. Took the darn thing apart (had to buy a small set of miniature tools from *of all places Harbor Freight* - guess where those tools were made) and now it works again !!!
Helloooohh ... I saved 170 green ones in the process ! Well --- OK, minus 3.99 USD for those tools !

BTW --- Gen 5, may mean Gen 5 in *their* counting system ???

So back to the original post. Instead of blaming the Chinese for making crappy parts (thinking the problem starts there), how about taking more pride in ourselves, and saying, *Dammit, we can do better ourselves !!!*
We do have the resources, but do we have to will to do it ?
Speaking of *greed* ... How much would an I-pad cost if it was made here ???

Dang, it felt good to *rant* !
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Old 05-24-2012, 12:54 PM
 
15,922 posts, read 17,864,018 times
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Not disagreeing with you at all.

BTW --- Gen 5 (or 5th generation) aircraft means the same thing all over the world.

http://defense-update.com/products/j/29122010_j-20.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM7Tka5ir70&feature

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/..._generation-0/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-years-351462/

Quote:
We do have the resources, but do we have to will to do it ?
Speaking of *greed* ... How much would an I-pad cost if it was made here ???
Of course we have the resources, the will to work as hard as the Chinese in factories 6 days a week 14 hours a day for $20.00 a day with no benefits?

Get real, this is the United States of America, land of the unions, nanny government and college educated people who are too good to work in factories....

As can be seen by the Pad market it's not the labor that drives the price, it's the manufacturer.

I think it's safe to say that Apple-anything carries a hefty premium price tag...

Last edited by plwhit; 05-24-2012 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:46 PM
 
Location: God's Gift to Mankind for flying anything
5,418 posts, read 11,469,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
come up with the farce they call the J-20... Using antique Russian engines, 1960's electronics, no stealth composites and calling it a Gen 5 fighter.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
BTW --- Gen 5 (or 5th generation) aircraft means the same thing all over the world.
I know what you are getting at plwhit ...
It was you who stated:
*come up with the farce*,
hence my comment about the difference in their rating system ...
Also, did the darn thing really fly yet (they claim, it made a test flight), or is it just a mock-up ? They only showed one, so how do you know it has ancient Russian engines ?
Speaking of ancient or antique. I remember working on the concept of the F/A-18 series, and that was in the early 70's !! Maybe close to 30 years ago when it all was still on the drawing board. That is not ancient ? Well may be not ancient or antique, but certainly bloody old in this day and age.

If it does mean the same thing (Gen-5 class), and I assume it is so, and then you say it is a farce, then it certainly can not be in the same *class* as what the rest of the world thinks is a Gen 5 class item ...
I have no opinion ... yet ...!

A long time ago, we had some of our products on display at the Paris Airshow. In one area there was an F-4 displayed, right next to a MiG.
Sadly enough, they opened up the MiG and the F-4 to show the *innards*.
We were flabbergasted about the difference in quality, and this was Russian !!!
The F-4 looked like the inside of a Swiss watch, while the MiG looked like the innards of steam driven plant somewhere in the woods of the deep south making illegal whatever !!!
We were wondering if they did that on purpose, displaying them side by side ?
Regardless of what *we* thought of the quality, I do remember how much damage those things did to us in the MiG Alley area !

Coming back at the notion of *stealing* technology ...
Remember when the buzz started about stealth stuff, there were plastic models of the plane available before we even knew what it was or heard of it !!!

Last edited by irman; 05-24-2012 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:27 PM
 
15,922 posts, read 17,864,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irman View Post
I know what you are getting at plwhit ...
It was you who stated:
*come up with the farce*,
hence my comment about the difference in their rating system ...
Also, did the darn thing really fly yet (they claim, it made a test flight), or is it just a mock-up ? They only showed one, so how do you know it has ancient Russian engines ?
If you search the web you will find numerous articles from various countries on the J-20. Obviously you didn't bother to read any of the articles I posted earlier based on what you posted above....

Quote:
Speaking of ancient or antique. I remember working on the concept of the F/A-18 series, and that was in the early 70's !! Maybe close to 30 years ago when it all was still on the drawing board. That is not ancient ? Well may be not ancient or antique, but certainly bloody old in this day and age.
Yes, and the A-12, forerunner of the SR-71 first flew on April 25th, 1962, your point?

Quote:
If it does mean the same thing (Gen-5 class), and I assume it is so, and then you say it is a farce, then it certainly can not be in the same *class* as what the rest of the world thinks is a Gen 5 class item ...
I have no opinion ... yet ...!
After you learn something about this plane and what the PLA says about it get back to me....

Quote:
A long time ago, we had some of our products on display at the Paris Airshow. In one area there was an F-4 displayed, right next to a MiG.
Sadly enough, they opened up the MiG and the F-4 to show the *innards*.
We were flabbergasted about the difference in quality, and this was Russian !!!
The F-4 looked like the inside of a Swiss watch, while the MiG looked like the innards of steam driven plant somewhere in the woods of the deep south making illegal whatever !!!
Yup, the Germans had the same smug attitude towards the Russians in WW2...

Quote:
Regardless of what *we* thought of the quality, I do remember how much damage those things did to us in the MiG Alley area !
Yes they raked us over the coals at the beginning when we were still flying P-51 Mustangs and B-29 Superfortress's and they were flying Mig-15's...

Quote:
Coming back at the notion of *stealing* technology ...
Remember when the buzz started about stealth stuff, there were plastic models of the plane available before we even knew what it was or heard of it !!!
Yes, and the models were all wrong....
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