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Old 07-23-2019, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
5,443 posts, read 3,534,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I doubt that is the reason.


I have been looking into whether Govt organizations/agencies, may be hiding the existence of 'aliens' (generally off and on for the past couple years).


Im in the process of searching newspaper articles now, (going back to the time period when newspapers first came about!), Ive looked at hundreds of articles so far, and from what I can tell, there is definitely something going on and its been going on for a LONG time.


I will say, the older articles (before WW2) are definitely the most informative, (its a night and day difference too!), officials were a lot more willing to comment and speak openly about the subject. Something happened to change this in the 1940s though, its very easy to see the difference in the articles from the 2 time periods.
Whelp...given how old the universe is and the fact that they'd be around at the same time as us, it wouldn't be surprising if they had millions of years old technology. That would mean they're basically wizards.

Have fun searching for invisible wizards who don't want to be found. That's why I have zero interest in learning about this stuff. I acknowledge that the existence of aliens amongst us, or who have visited us, is a definite possibility. I tend to scoff at most conspiracy theories. The Yeti...the Sasquatch...the chewbacabras...the Loch Ness Monster...all that seems pretty thoroughly debunked. Aliens, though, aren't like those sorts of ordinary animals. I would assume that if we don't see them in provable ways, they're probably not here, but I could understand reasons why they might be here, and I could easily understand how they might go undetected, and I could understand reasons people who contacted them might not tell anyone about it.

I don't want to go searching for invisible wizards who, for all I know, could make their existence totally impossible to prove. I don't like endlessly having to search for phantoms, and even if they exist, all they may reveal are phantoms and rumors no matter how much effort goes into attempting to find them.

I assume that aliens would publicly reveal their presence at some point. We're presumably talking about trillions of individuals, or more, so that even if there's some law banning them from that some chucklehead would presumably, eventually, spill the beans. I assume that aliens would build visible megastructures all throughout the galaxy if they lived here...but then, it's tough to determine a whole lot about what invisible wizards are capable of.

You mentioned them originating here on Earth or being time-travelers...I would see either of those possibilities being less likely than them having come from elsewhere, personally. We don't know time travel is possible for living beings yet. Also, if they originated on Earth, I'd think we'd see more signs of them around - trash on the moon and such...strange toys built of metals with properties that don't exist in nature, and stuff like that. Also, if they originated on Earth, I don't know why they'd have left so much of the solar system intact. I don't know why w wouldn't see mine shafts on the moon and more signs of tampering in our solar system. Even if they would have eventually become some kind of transcendent species without physical forms or something not dependent on physical resources...I'd think they would have strip-mined the heck out of their solar system of origin. I would have been surprised if there were even rocky planets left intact...much less Earth with abundant mineral resources.

Last edited by Clintone; 07-23-2019 at 07:01 AM..
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:17 AM
 
21,016 posts, read 6,044,020 times
Reputation: 12078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
Whelp...given how old the universe is and the fact that they'd be around at the same time as us, it wouldn't be surprising if they had millions of years old technology. That would mean they're basically wizards.

Have fun searching for invisible wizards who don't want to be found. That's why I have zero interest in learning about this stuff. I acknowledge that the existence of aliens amongst us, or who have visited us, is a definite possibility. I tend to scoff at most conspiracy theories. The Yeti...the Sasquatch...the chewbacabras...the Loch Ness Monster...all that seems pretty thoroughly debunked. Aliens, though, aren't like those sorts of ordinary animals. I would assume that if we don't see them in provable ways, they're probably not here, but I could understand reasons why they might be here, and I could easily understand how they might go undetected, and I could understand reasons people who contacted them might not tell anyone about it.

I don't want to go searching for invisible wizards who, for all I know, could make their existence totally impossible to prove. I don't like endlessly having to search for phantoms, and even if they exist, all they may reveal are phantoms and rumors no matter how much effort goes into attempting to find them.

I assume that aliens would publicly reveal their presence at some point. We're presumably talking about trillions of individuals, or more, so that even if there's some law banning them from that some chucklehead would presumably, eventually, spill the beans. I assume that aliens would build visible megastructures all throughout the galaxy if they lived here...but then, it's tough to determine a whole lot about what invisible wizards are capable of.

You mentioned them originating here on Earth or being time-travelers...I would see either of those possibilities being less likely than them having come from elsewhere, personally. We don't know time travel is possible for living beings yet. Also, if they originated on Earth, I'd think we'd see more signs of them around - trash on the moon and such...strange toys built of metals with properties that don't exist in nature, and stuff like that. Also, if they originated on Earth, I don't know why they'd have left so much of the solar system intact. I don't know why w wouldn't see mine shafts on the moon and more signs of tampering in our solar system. Even if they would have eventually become some kind of transcendent species without physical forms or something not dependent on physical resources...I'd think they would have strip-mined the heck out of their solar system of origin. I would have been surprised if there were even rocky planets left intact...much less Earth with abundant mineral resources.
Hmm, thats a great point, that I had not thought of before (if advanced civilizations existed on earth, we would see proof of their past activities on earth, the moon, Mars, etc). That gives me something to think about.


Regarding the future time travelers theory, you are right, that we do not yet know if its possible, but we have all sorts of technology today that past generations likely would have thought impossible too, and to be honest, this theory would explain nearly all the aspects of the subject, most importantly being, why there is NEVER an attempt from them to communicate, when we send fighters up to investigate, they either vanish immediately or they toy around with the jet for a little bit and then vanish! Another is why their technology/ craft never appears to advance or progress, over decades.
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Spaniard living in Mexico
840 posts, read 436,986 times
Reputation: 920
Let's assume that UFO sighting is real. In that case, do you know an intelligent civilization capable of dominating time traveling? Ourselves. Because human being is the only intelligent civilization we know about today.

The Fermi Paradox has not been solved yet, we still can't prove that intelligent extraterrestrial life exists, we only have statistics. I mentioned the Dark Forest "Theory" because of all hypotheses, this is one of the most impressive, but still just based on science fiction. The most plausible reason I could find to explain why we never set up an official contact with intelligent extraterrestrial life is because of the long distances of the universe. This fact along with the difficulty to match in time and space with a possible extraterrestrial visit to our planet may be a factible solution to Fermi Paradox. There may be lots of reasons: they may have visited us, but millions years ago, a duck or just another lower species can't explain us anything, they may have seen the alien visitors and they just fled because of their primitive instincts to react under a life-threatening situation. Other explanations may be that they are no longer interested in us, they can't visit us because our life conditions may be impossible for them: adverse weather conditions (for them), diseases for which they are not protected and they may not survive in our planet. Other explanations can be related to the Great Filter, if the Great Filter is ahead of us, then probably no intelligent civilization can survive to their own technological advances, so that intelligent civilizations may create a technology that destroy themselves inevitably.

But those are just hypotheses. In my opinion, and that is just my opinion, the big distances in the universe may explain why we can't contact other intelligent civilizations. According to special relativity, is not possible to even reach light speed (in a vacuum status), because the mass and the energy would reach infinite values. This is at least what we know today, is there any other method to travel such huge distances? (at least some light years of distance) In theory, a wormhole, which is a speculative theory, never tested. Space and time deformation would require an amount of energy equivalent to a type II to III civilization according to the kardashev scale, that would be asking too much to a civilization.

Let's go back to the possibility time-traveling of future humans. We are trying to understand this. In my opinion, this can be worthless, because we will never understand in case that in fact a future human civilization have been time-traveling during the last millions of years of earth history. Today, we are not sure about how feasible is time-traveling to the past, but physics never stated that is not possible that time goes to the opposite direction. All we know today is that we, everybody, is going ahead in time to the future, but as an additional dimension, time can exist in the opposite direction. However, we don't have any idea how to achieve this. I can imagine that time traveling would require a kind of space-time deformation and all that I know is that space-time deformation is estimated to require an amount of energy larger than the energy that we can get from our planet. We are about 0.73 type I civilization: a civilization that can use all energy from its own planet. It is estimated that we would reach type I civilization by 200 years ahead. If space-time deformation requires to be somewhere between type II to type III civilization, how much time does it need to dominate space-time deformation? Just to say that, if time-travelers do exist, I can think about human species that are at least 10,000 years ahead of us (probably I'm being too optimistic). Let's think about that, will you understand a technology that have been developed 10,000 years ahead of us? It would be more or less the equivalent to show a space shuttle to stone age human beings.

And in regards to intelligent extraterrestrial species, we are not able to go further our Solar System, we can only expect that they visit us. This would require a civilization thousands or millions of evolution ahead of us. Long distances in universe, along with matching in time may explain the Fermi's question: where are they? I almost forget to mention something: long distances in Universe... but... I was not considering another very relevant factor in all of this: the speed in which the Universe (this Universe at least) is expanding, which is estimated to be at least at the speed of light (I ignore if scientifics refer in vacuum conditions). So, we have to consider the Universe expansion along with the huge distances in this Universe. There are several things to consider as well... Intergalactic communications: this is regardless alien space-time traveling. Since 1970s we are sending messages and signals to other intelligent extraterrestrial civilizations, with the hope to set up communications with them and to demonstrate that we are not alone in this Universe. Are they receiving our messages/signals? Our technology is just too obsolete for them? In which direction should we send those messages/signals? What if they are trying to communicate with us and we can't understand what they are sending to us? We don't even know what kind of technology an alien civilization can develop!

Last edited by Jorge ChemE; 08-03-2019 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:38 PM
 
21,016 posts, read 6,044,020 times
Reputation: 12078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE View Post
Let's assume that UFO sighting is real. In that case, do you know an intelligent civilization capable of dominating time traveling? Ourselves. Because human being is the only intelligent civilization we know about today.

The Fermi Paradox has not been solved yet, we still can't prove that intelligent extraterrestrial life exists, we only have statistics. I mentioned the Dark Forest "Theory" because of all hypotheses, this is one of the most impressive, but still just based on science fiction. The most plausible reason I could find to explain why we never set up an official contact with intelligent extraterrestrial life is because of the long distances of the universe. This fact along with the difficulty to match in time and space with a possible extraterrestrial visit to our planet may be a factible solution to Fermi Paradox. There may be lots of reasons: they may have visited us, but millions years ago, a duck or just another lower species can't explain us anything, they may have seen the alien visitors and they just fled because of their primitive instincts to react under a life-threatening situation. Other explanations may be that they are no longer interested in us, they can't visit us because our life conditions may be impossible for them: adverse weather conditions (for them), diseases for which they are not protected and they may not survive in our planet. Other explanations can be related to the Great Filter, if the Great Filter is ahead of us, then probably no intelligent civilization can survive to their own technological advances, so that intelligent civilizations may create a technology that destroy themselves inevitably.

But those are just hypotheses. In my opinion, and that is just my opinion, the big distances in the universe may explain why we can't contact other intelligent civilizations. According to special relativity, is not possible to even reach light speed (in a vacuum status), because the mass and the energy would reach infinite values. This is at least what we know today, is there any other method to travel such huge distances? (at least some light years of distance) In theory, a wormhole, which is a speculative theory, never tested. Space and time deformation would require an amount of energy equivalent to a type II to III civilization according to the kardashev scale, that would be asking too much to a civilization.

Let's go back to the possibility time-traveling of future humans. We are trying to understand this. In my opinion, this can be worthless, because we will never understand in case that in fact a future human civilization have been time-traveling during the last millions of years of earth history. Today, we are not sure about how feasible is time-traveling to the past, but physics never stated that is not possible that time goes to the opposite direction. All we know today is that we, everybody, is going ahead in time to the future, but as an additional dimension, time can exist in the opposite direction. However, we don't have any idea how to achieve this. I can imagine that time traveling would require a kind of space-time deformation and all that I know is that space-time deformation is estimated to require an amount of energy larger than the energy that we can get from our planet. We are about 0.73 type I civilization: a civilization that can use all energy from its own planet. It is estimated that we would reach type I civilization by 200 years ahead. If space-time deformation requires to be somewhere between type II to type III civilization, how much time does it need to dominate space-time deformation? Just to say that, if time-travelers do exist, I can think about human species that are at least 10,000 years ahead of us (probably I'm being too optimistic). Let's think about that, will you understand a technology that have been developed 10,000 years ahead of us? It would be more or less the equivalent to show a space shuttle to stone age human beings.

And in regards to intelligent extraterrestrial species, we are not able to go further our Solar System, we can only expect that they visit us. This would require a civilization thousands or millions of evolution ahead of us. Long distances in universe, along with matching in time may explain the Fermi's question: where are they? I almost forget to mention something: long distances in Universe... but... I was not considering another very relevant factor in all of this: the speed in which the Universe (this Universe at least) is expanding, which is estimated to be at least at the speed of light (I ignore if scientifics refer in vacuum conditions). So, we have to consider the Universe expansion along with the huge distances in this Universe. There are several things to consider as well... Intergalactic communications: this is regardless alien space-time traveling. Since 1970s we are sending messages and signals to other intelligent extraterrestrial civilizations, with the hope to set up communications with them and to demonstrate that we are not alone in this Universe. Are they receiving our messages/signals? Our technology is just too obsolete for them? In which direction should we send those messages/signals? What if they are trying to communicate with us and we can't understand what they are sending to us? We don't even know what kind of technology an alien civilization can develop!
What if they were just 500-1000 yrs ahead of us though? Their 'technology/craft' would appear to us, as being impossible, defying the laws of physics, etc. its just not something we could understand, it would be like someone from 1870 being handed an iphone and explaining to them what it can do...they wouldnt believe you, and probably tell you it sounds like hocus pocus magic!


I probably dont have to say it again, but I believe we are being visited by 'something', but I dont think they are necessarily what we think they are (beings from some other place), I dont think its that simple.
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Old 08-10-2019, 11:16 AM
 
Location: NY
9,910 posts, read 2,838,571 times
Reputation: 6457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE View Post
It seems that for some UFO sightings are something so usual to the point that our space and even our skies are filled with alien spaceships in a way that one may think that our skies are like an UFO traffic jam!

UFO scams are everywhere: Area 51, alien abduction witnessings, videos and photos of dubious reputation, conspiracy theories stating that governments are hidding secrets and "the truth" about "they are among us", etc. But scientists assure that there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life up to today.

Of course leaving aside conspiracy theories and scams, let's focus on science and the fact that scientists assure that there is still no evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. The Fermi Paradox was formulated in 1950s by Enrico Fermi and refers to the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence for and various high probability estimates of the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations elsewhere just in the Milky Way galaxy.

But why we still lack of evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life? Dr. Frank Drake formulated a factorial equation in 1961 known as the Drake Equation to estimate the number of active, communicative extraterrestrial civilizations in the Milky Way galaxy:
N = R* × fp × ne × fl × fi × fc × L

where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);
and

R∗ = the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl = the fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life (civilizations)
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space

Using conservative estimates, the minimum result of this equation is 20. There ought to be 20 intelligent alien civilizations in the Milky Way that we can contact and who can contact us. But there aren't any.
Opinion:
may we add...............
fm= the fraction of those planets that have moons into the equation if we are looking for life possibly similar to ours?
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:59 AM
 
66 posts, read 25,617 times
Reputation: 57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNhhvQGsMEc
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:00 AM
 
21,016 posts, read 6,044,020 times
Reputation: 12078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Retired View Post
Opinion:
may we add...............
fm= the fraction of those planets that have moons into the equation if we are looking for life possibly similar to ours?
"But scientists assure that there is no evidence of extraterrestrial life up to today." (from the post above).


I certainly do not believe that.


IF that were true, how did they reach the conclusion that the military would be unable to defend against some of the technologies recovered from past UAPs...going even further back, to the days of Project Blue Book...how did they reach the conclusion that this was something that should be withheld from the general public? (they believed the public was not ready to learn about these things yet)
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