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Old 11-26-2021, 08:05 AM
 
23,177 posts, read 12,219,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
And yes there are all kinds of machines doing the work at assembly lines, being deployed to survey the land and buildings (looking for explosives, and so on), small self-propelled vacuum cleaners, and even assisting people with handicaps (in Japan), but those machines don't think and act like a human being (they aren't self-aware).

We're not talking about now. We don't have a fully automated world. To achieve the premise of the thread would require more advanced technology. And I'm not sure why you think a machine couldn't gather the materials needed to make another machine or transfer to a new chip the programming that has already been designed. If we still needed humans then it wouldn't be "fully" automated.
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Old 11-26-2021, 08:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Machines doing what humans would do is what is meant by "fully automated". And if we reached the point of technology where that could happen, then I think machines could also program, maintain, and repair the machines.
I'm thinking that too. AI can not design and maintain itself yet. But eventually advanced AI will be able to maintain itself, including designing, producing, manufacturing and maintaining what it needs. For example an AI robot will monitor it's battery status and charge itself when needed. And if it needs new batteries it will get new batteries from a battery factory that was designed, built, and run by AI robots. Same for any product.

You can find a YT video of a robot working with sheet rock to construct walls in a new house. If it can do that, then AI robots can run factories too. Eventually AI robots will have any 'skill' a person has, but even better. Including designing, mining, manufacturing, construction, maintenance, repair, etc, not only products but 'themselves'. All humans have to do is monitor that AI is doing what it's suppose to be doing.

With AI producing and maintaining everything the elite will not need to sell products or services to the masses to obtain their wealth. Because as it is now, to the elite the masses are like 'consumer robots' who purchase products and services so the elite makes a profit. But when AI automation makes everything there is no need for consumers anymore. Consumerism is no longer needed to obtain wealth because automation can create 'wealth'.

The elite could then decide the population levels needed to prevent depleting the world's resources. What is that population level? Have they already decided that?

Free market capitalism is far superior to anything else in providing products and services. But it has a problem- it's so successful that capitalism without restraint will efficiently use up all resources to keep producing for ever more consumers, to create ever higher profits. It's very efficient at this. So maybe the elite have decided we can't have x billion people? Is 8 billion too many? They might decide free market capitalism has to be stopped. Is this what we see happening now?

Maybe the plan is to end capitalism and have AI automation provide everything for the masses? When automation is producing everything consumerism will not be needed. You will order whatever you need or want and the AI network will decide if you can have that, and if so, it's delivered to you for free. There will be no $ and there will be no stores to shop at. Consumerism is gone. The elite are providing what you need through their AI automation!

Need a 3 bedroom home? Order it, and if approved you'll get a 3 bedroom home worth about 700k in today's market. Maybe the elite's plan is that everyone can live like a millionaire, but only if resources and population are controlled. Is that their plan? I think that is actually possible when AI automation gets to the point it can provide any product or service.

No one will have to work or even have a career as the elite's AI automation provides everything for everyone to have a millionaire lifestyle. What will people do if they don't work? Well, the elite will provide activities- including sports, travel, hobbies, etc. With reduced population levels there is no need for large cities. Sprawling crowded cities that pollute the environment will be reconstructed into small townships with beautiful landscapes. Kinda like Disney World.

With the elite running the world with AI there will be no reason for nations, borders, politics, wars, etc. All that will be unnecessary. Instead of joining the military (as there will be no military), you can join a social or activity club!

The people will be free to pursue all types of personal and social activities, approved by the AI network, with consumption of all products under tight control. Consumerism will be gone but everyone will live in beautiful towns like a millionaire and have a wide range of social and personal activities to do.

Is this the elite's long term plan?

Some will reject the elite's automation system that provides for a millionaire lifestyle. Instead, these 'outsiders' will live off the system grid and in remote areas. At first the elite will allow this, as long as the outsiders do not cause trouble. The outsiders will be closely monitored. And if the outsiders cause trouble they are easily captured by AI robots. However, a small outsider group may somehow avoid detection and plan for a rebellion and takeover.

Last edited by james112; 11-26-2021 at 09:02 AM..
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Old 11-26-2021, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,293 posts, read 37,183,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
We're not talking about now. We don't have a fully automated world. To achieve the premise of the thread would require more advanced technology. And I'm not sure why you think a machine couldn't gather the materials needed to make another machine or transfer to a new chip the programming that has already been designed. If we still needed humans then it wouldn't be "fully" automated.
You only quoted a paragraph of my previous response, and omitted the first paragraph which as written as follows (will quoted the paragraph you omitted):
Quote:
Eventually, at least in the far future according to sci-fi movies and books, machines will replicate themselves. The problem is that such machines would first have to achieve self-awareness. While you can have a computer running a program a machine program or even build another machine, it takes a human to design the program, and to gather the materials needed for the machine to build another. But if a machine becomes self-aware, then it can act and think like a human. As such in can extract the minerals from the ground, gather all that is needed, bring it to the assembly line, and build the other machine. Computer (or machine) self-awareness is something scientist are afraid of.
No machine of today can build itself, and then create a program to run itself using its own brain power. The only way a machine can do that is if it becomes self-aware. In this case it can think and act using its own brain power, and then figure how to build another machine and crate a brain for it. Yes, the machines of today can gather materials, build things, baby-sit people with handicaps (done in Japan), vacuum floors, search for explosives and other things, work in assembly lines, but none can think and act as a human. All they can do is to follow a set of instructions that were designed by a human programmer.

Last edited by RayinAK; 11-26-2021 at 08:31 PM..
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Old 11-26-2021, 08:25 PM
 
23,177 posts, read 12,219,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
You only quoted a paragraph of my previous response, and omitted the first paragraph which as written as follows (will quoted the paragraph you omitted):

No machine of today can replicate itself: build itself, and then create a program to run itself. The only way a machine can do that is it becomes self-aware.

I ony quoted the part that was relevant to my response. And you continue to miss the fact that we are not talking about "today". Anything you have to say about what a machine can do today is completely irrelevant. We are talking about when we reach a point that the world is "fully automated".

And no, a machine does not need to be self-aware to replicate another machine, repair another machine, or copy a program to another machine. There is no inherent need for it to be able to do it to itself. Or even be aware that the machine it is working on is just like itself. That is a straw man you invented.
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Old 11-27-2021, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,293 posts, read 37,183,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
I ony quoted the part that was relevant to my response. And you continue to miss the fact that we are not talking about "today". Anything you have to say about what a machine can do today is completely irrelevant. We are talking about when we reach a point that the world is "fully automated".

And no, a machine does not need to be self-aware to replicate another machine, repair another machine, or copy a program to another machine. There is no inherent need for it to be able to do it to itself. Or even be aware that the machine it is working on is just like itself. That is a straw man you invented.
I have no idea why you can't accept reposes to this thread. Did you created this thread?

Again, machines of today cannot replicate themselves without humans. They don't procreate or reproduce.

I will leave it as that.
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Old 11-27-2021, 01:26 PM
 
23,177 posts, read 12,219,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
I have no idea why you can't accept reposes to this thread. Did you created this thread?

Again, machines of today cannot replicate themselves without humans.

I will leave it as that.

Again, we are not talking about today.
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Old 11-27-2021, 01:33 PM
 
23,177 posts, read 12,219,693 times
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However, examine the pic below of robotic machines assembling cars. Imagine in the place of cars were other robotic machines just like the ones doing the assembly. Do you think the robots would magically become unable to turn screws and weld parts and such because the target machine was just like themselves?


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Old 11-27-2021, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,293 posts, read 37,183,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Again, we are not talking about today.
The paragraph you omitted gives you the answer already, since I was referring about the "far future." But instead of quoting both paragraphs, you conveniently quoted one, taking my words out of context.

You where not the person who started this thread. Not only that, but harry chickpea already provided a great response to the questions the OP asked (his answer referred to the future). Continuing this argument is derailing this thread, since it should be the OP asking the questions, not you.

Last edited by RayinAK; 11-27-2021 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 11-27-2021, 01:42 PM
 
23,177 posts, read 12,219,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK View Post
The paragraph you omitted gives you the answer already, since I was referring about the "far future." But instead of quoting both paragraphs, you conveniently quoted one, taking my words out of context.

If you're talking about the far future then why do you keep telling us about what machines can or cannot do today?


And if you read for comprehension, my post said that the "masses" could be eliminated not every human could be eliminated. So we might keep a hundred million humans around not 9 billion.
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Old 11-27-2021, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Not far from Fairbanks, AK
20,293 posts, read 37,183,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklazona Bound View Post
Why would those at the top need you or anyone not at the top? Especially those not contributing to society.

I would think a country like China that their biggest problem is the one billion plus people they need to constantly keep under control. If automation could do everything it could make everything most of the people expendable.
Because there isn't one society around the world where there isn't someone at the top and the rest, gradually toward the bottom. Even in the animal kingdom there are members at the top and others from just below the top all the way to the bottom. It is the same at the workplace. Even in a communist society there are groups at the top, and the rest are steped to the bottom
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