Seattle Council unanimously passes plastic bag ban...

[Inkpoe]

Originally Posted by Seacove

Originally Posted by Xanathos
It's not even so much that I particularly care about plastic bags, because, frankly, I don't. It's the concept that the government should be trying to mold my behavior, even if the people don't want the government to do it, that I find distasteful.

That is all.

You do realize Libertarians think the same way as well?

I get what Xanathos is saying... but at least that is the price of living in Seattle Proper. Glad I don't live in it. I think if this was really important to Seattle City Council, they should've encourage businesses to give more incentives to those who follow this line of thinking (or find another way, but this would involve creativity). But I guess you can't really trust the public to do the "right" thing after all.

[Xanathos]

Originally Posted by Inkpoe

You do realize Libertarians think the same way as well?

I get what Xanathos is saying... but at least that is the price of living in Seattle Proper. Glad I don't live in it. I think if this was really important to Seattle City Council, they should've encourage businesses to give more incentives to those who follow this line of thinking (or find another way, but this would involve creativity). But I guess you can't really trust the public to do the "right" thing after all.

See? It's not hard to "get it". Inkpoe here got it, no problems. He also apparently got what I was saying in that putting up with this sort of thing is exactly why a lot of us who live in the area....won't live in the city itself. Simple solutions for simple problems. This area isn't like Portland where you just can't escape it, no matter where you go.

None of this "Oh man, I couldn't handle living in a red state! They're all just so dirty!" crap, or "If you don't like how we do things in Seattle, move to a red state" nonsense. Very simple: There is an invisible boundary around the border of the city - and those who don't like nanny stating stay on one side of it. That's how it will always be up here, no matter what your "informal polling" (thanks for the chuckle on that, btw) leads some to believe.

[hamellr]

Originally Posted by Freebird2007

Why is it that there is no mention of recycling the bags? I bet the majority of the people who voted for the ban don't even think about taking the used bags to the recycling bin. You want jobs? Hire a dozen or so people to sort thru recyclables at the landfills.

Because the type of plastic used in plastic bags (grocery, ziploc, garbage, etc,) are nearly impossible to recycle both from a physical stand point and a monetary standpoint.

Automated sorters at garbage collection centers have become pretty sophisticated in the past ten years, because no one wants that job. But there is still no good way to remove plastic bags, both empty and filled, from the garbage stream. If a bag is filled, everything in the bag gets bypassed by the sorter. If the bag is empty, it's so light that it gets mixed in with other products.

Some collection centers have people who's job is to physically pull plastic bags out of the stream at first, but it's a huge health hazard, and has a high turnover even at the relatively decent pay (here in PDX $15/hour starting.)

Once plastics of any sort are collected, they're ground up in to small pellets about the size of rice, sometimes smaller that are then sent to factories and melted for new products. Plastic bags simply do not grind up on an industrial level. They also have an extremely low point where they can melt, making the plastics unusable for almost all applications, even being used to make more plastic bags.

Many in the plastics industry actually support bans on plastic bags. They're pretty much a dead end product that is used once or twice and then has to go to the landfill. The revenue generated on them is so low that it's not worth producing in the first place.

[Xanathos]

Originally Posted by hamellr

Because the type of plastic used in plastic bags (grocery, ziploc, garbage, etc,) are nearly impossible to recycle both from a physical stand point and a monetary standpoint.

Automated sorters at garbage collection centers have become pretty sophisticated in the past ten years, because no one wants that job. But there is still no good way to remove plastic bags, both empty and filled, from the garbage stream. If a bag is filled, everything in the bag gets bypassed by the sorter. If the bag is empty, it's so light that it gets mixed in with other products.

Some collection centers have people who's job is to physically pull plastic bags out of the stream at first, but it's a huge health hazard, and has a high turnover even at the relatively decent pay (here in PDX $15/hour starting.)

Once plastics of any sort are collected, they're ground up in to small pellets about the size of rice, sometimes smaller that are then sent to factories and melted for new products. Plastic bags simply do not grind up on an industrial level. They also have an extremely low point where they can melt, making the plastics unusable for almost all applications, even being used to make more plastic bags.

Many in the plastics industry actually support bans on plastic bags. They're pretty much a dead end product that is used once or twice and then has to go to the landfill. The revenue generated on them is so low that it's not worth producing in the first place.

...Plastic bags are typically recycled into a resin that is then used as feed for more plastic bags, plumbing pipes, and plastic crates (milk crates, for example). So you're statement on them not being recyclable doesn't ring true. The problem with them is they aren't cost-effective to recycle. I dont' remember where I saw it, but I read somewhere that it cost like 4 grand to recycle a ton of bags - which would then be sold for about 40 bucks. So for local municipalities, the appeal of banning them is mostly economic.

Recycling jobs are typically makework positions, regardless...so of course turnover will be high, as the jobs typically go to workers of marginal-at-best skills and questionable work ethics (and the city of Seattle is a great example of this, paying people to rummage around in residents' trash to make sure they're recycling - all on the taxpayer dime and with state worker benefits). Penn & Teller did a great episode of BS on recycling.

The other thing that stuck out to me was your statement that the revenue on them is so low they aren't worth producing. If that were the case...then why does the industry devote so many resources to fighting nanny bans like this? Again, doesn't ring true.

Edit: A 3 second Google search yielded http://www.plasticbagrecycling.org/01.0/ , which discusses how the bags can be recycled.

[hamellr]

Originally Posted by Xanathos

...Plastic bags are typically recycled into a resin that is then used as feed for more plastic bags, plumbing pipes, and plastic crates (milk crates, for example). So you're statement on them not being recyclable doesn't ring true.

I said "Because the type of plastic used in plastic bags (grocery, ziploc, garbage, etc,) are nearly impossible to recycle both from a physical stand point and a monetary standpoint."

Nowhere did I say they were not recyclable. All your arguments except the last dovetail nicely into this statement.

[Freebird2007]

Originally Posted by hamellr

Because the type of plastic used in plastic bags (grocery, ziploc, garbage, etc,) are nearly impossible to recycle both from a physical stand point and a monetary standpoint.

Automated sorters at garbage collection centers have become pretty sophisticated in the past ten years, because no one wants that job. But there is still no good way to remove plastic bags, both empty and filled, from the garbage stream. If a bag is filled, everything in the bag gets bypassed by the sorter. If the bag is empty, it's so light that it gets mixed in with other products.

Some collection centers have people who's job is to physically pull plastic bags out of the stream at first, but it's a huge health hazard, and has a high turnover even at the relatively decent pay (here in PDX $15/hour starting.)

Once plastics of any sort are collected, they're ground up in to small pellets about the size of rice, sometimes smaller that are then sent to factories and melted for new products. Plastic bags simply do not grind up on an industrial level. They also have an extremely low point where they can melt, making the plastics unusable for almost all applications, even being used to make more plastic bags.

Many in the plastics industry actually support bans on plastic bags. They're pretty much a dead end product that is used once or twice and then has to go to the landfill. The revenue generated on them is so low that it's not worth producing in the first place.

[evergraystate]

City council is busy banning plastic bags in the mean time the roads keep crumbling and the traffic jams keep growing. What a pathetic excuse for city government. As if we needed another reason to leave Seattle.

[eskercurve]

I just finished some popcorn watching this devolve into some absurd political discussion. Thanks guys! It's been fun!

As far as I'm concerned, only my post back on page 3 was worth reading in the ensuing flamewar.

[Count David]

It really isn't about the bags anymore.