How do you deal with the pervasive flakiness here? (Seattle: home, high school)
Seattle areaSeattle and King County Suburbs
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I've encountered this problem everywhere I've lived (Midwest, Northeast, and Seattle). Maybe I just try to hang out with the wrong people, but it usually takes multiple attempts and a few white lies to get people to show to things when you invite them. Some people are worse about keeping commitments than others, so you really have to get a sense of how responsive each person is. Hanging out with friends shouldn't be hard work, but it is.
I honestly think people are actually trying to be nice... overly, unnecessarily, maddeningly friendly nice.... when they flake out on you there. I read something once about the psychology of Seattle. It basically summed up to this: unlike most places in the US, people in Seattle are actually thinking about everyone else's feeling before their own. So everything you do, say, you're thinking about how the other person is going to take it and react to it, rather than considering your own feelings about it. This is in contrast to most of America that generally has a "me-first" attitude, especially when dealing with other people. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it certainly explains a lot of the "Seattle nice" attitude you encounter everywhere: on the surface everyone appears very friendly to your needs, but dig down deeper and you find out that it was just more of a reaction and people really have no interest in you or your needs. (And possibly explains the rampant passive aggressiveness, which is really just putting on act of caring about the other person's viewpoint while actually defending your own.) Some may argue this is a more civilized approach to life, but it drove me mad when I lived there. Primarily because I was from the East Coast and was totally unaccustomed to that. Also, my own personal opinion, it makes people act like dicks behind your back even though they're nice to your face. And act completely fake, because they're not even able to express their opinion in the most innocuous situations.
I honestly think people are actually trying to be nice... overly, unnecessarily, maddeningly friendly nice.... when they flake out on you there. I read something once about the psychology of Seattle. It basically summed up to this: unlike most places in the US, people in Seattle are actually thinking about everyone else's feeling before their own. So everything you do, say, you're thinking about how the other person is going to take it and react to it, rather than considering your own feelings about it. This is in contrast to most of America that generally has a "me-first" attitude, especially when dealing with other people. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it certainly explains a lot of the "Seattle nice" attitude you encounter everywhere: on the surface everyone appears very friendly to your needs, but dig down deeper and you find out that it was just more of a reaction and people really have no interest in you or your needs. (And possibly explains the rampant passive aggressiveness, which is really just putting on act of caring about the other person's viewpoint while actually defending your own.) Some may argue this is a more civilized approach to life, but it drove me mad when I lived there. Primarily because I was from the East Coast and was totally unaccustomed to that. Also, my own personal opinion, it makes people act like dicks behind your back even though they're nice to your face. And act completely fake, because they're not even able to express their opinion in the most innocuous situations.
Ugh, one of my good friends talks about passive-aggressiveness all the time out here (we're not in Seattle btw). What exactly do you east coaster mean when you say this? I think we may have a different explanation of it out here.
Sometimes I just go out of my way to smile and say hello to people, especially girls, when walking by.. The reaction is more times than not a cold stare and they straight ignore me as if at any moment I will attempt to rape them. I've never encountered such reactions anywhere I have lived or visited until I moved here. One example I had of Seattle's coldness and mistrust was one day I was at a park in Queen Anne. I am big into fitness and saw these two ladies working out in the park. So, as I was walking by I just politely asked them what kind of exercise they were doing as it looked interesting. The woman stared at me for a few seconds like she was very annoyed at me for daring to try to interact with her. She looked at me like I was going to rape her or try to take advantage of her.. So, she and her friend just decide to ignore me and pretend I am not here, despite asking the question. I can say being treated like that could make my blood boil, but I am getting use to the behavior of Seattle people now and just smiled and said out loud "have a nice day" and moved on. I've never met such cold and unfriendly people anywhere I have been and I have traveled three continents.
Even when I was in Holland and interacting with the Dutch, who are known to be reserved people, they would stop and always hear me out and respond to a question, even if it is was "I don't know". In Seattle it is perfectly acceptable to just ignore a person who is standing right next to you like they don't exist if you don't want to go to the effort of interacting with them.
I've gotten the same thing here. I jog occasionally in the Redmond Watershed Preserve and when I pass somebody, I usually wave, smile or greet "hello." Except for the young women under the age of about forty, most everybody greets back. When I lived in Northern Europe, the reactions of these in similar circumstances were more polite at least. I don't know if the young women here are in such danger of constantly being harassed or attacked that this has bred such climate of fear and this unfortunate attitude. It doesn't surprise me that the women in Seattle ignore the unsolicited attentions of unacquainted men. In big cities there are just more people competing for attention and greeting every stranger you walk by is unrealistic. However ignoring a direct inquiry or conversation is plain rude. At least a curt and disinterested reply would suffice to get the point across that further discussion is unwelcome.
It's kind of unfortunate, the only place I consistently see attractive women, that seem to appeal to treuphax the bachelor, are on the trails. It's too bad that I've been so brainwashed by all the American women who constantly complain about strangers who bother and harass them while trying to charm them in inappropriate situations like on the jogging or hiking trail. So I don't bother to bother the poor darlings and I remain a mostly happy independent bachelor. Their loss perhaps?
Maybe the nice Dutch women aren't such little wilting daisies and I might like it there better? I don't really mind the Seattle weather, so the cold rain from the North Sea wouldn't be a problem. And cycling around town without hills and motorists would be more my kind of fun than what is possible here. Furthermore being able get around mostly by bicycle would make it possible to escape what is by far Seattle's worst curse, the road traffic.
I honestly think people are actually trying to be nice... overly, unnecessarily, maddeningly friendly nice.... when they flake out on you there. I read something once about the psychology of Seattle. It basically summed up to this: unlike most places in the US, people in Seattle are actually thinking about everyone else's feeling before their own. So everything you do, say, you're thinking about how the other person is going to take it and react to it, rather than considering your own feelings about it. This is in contrast to most of America that generally has a "me-first" attitude, especially when dealing with other people. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but it certainly explains a lot of the "Seattle nice" attitude you encounter everywhere: on the surface everyone appears very friendly to your needs, but dig down deeper and you find out that it was just more of a reaction and people really have no interest in you or your needs. (And possibly explains the rampant passive aggressiveness, which is really just putting on act of caring about the other person's viewpoint while actually defending your own.) Some may argue this is a more civilized approach to life, but it drove me mad when I lived there. Primarily because I was from the East Coast and was totally unaccustomed to that. Also, my own personal opinion, it makes people act like dicks behind your back even though they're nice to your face. And act completely fake, because they're not even able to express their opinion in the most innocuous situations.
Um, How is it nice to stand someone up??? And how is it that people in Seattle are actually thinking about everyone else's feelings when they don't mean what they say??? To me, it's just flat out disrespectful.
Ugh, one of my good friends talks about passive-aggressiveness all the time out here (we're not in Seattle btw). What exactly do you east coaster mean when you say this? I think we may have a different explanation of it out here.
It's like this: say you're in a coffee shop, and there's one table left, and you walk up to it, but notice that someone else is approaching at the same time. Dilemma: what do you do? Just take it, or offer it to the other person? On one hand you want to be nice, but on the other hand you really wanted that table. In the end, you just have to choose one or the other. Take the table and don't look back, or take the high road and offer the table to the other person. There's really no wrong answer here.
UNLESS you're in Seattle. Then the situation would most likely go down like this: First person: "Oh hi, were you going to take this table?" Second person: "Yes I was, but were you going to take it, as well?" First person: "Well I was, because I was actually here a few seconds before you, but if you want it, you can have it." Second person: "Oh, I didn't realize the rules for table occupation in this coffee shop were measured down to the second, but since you seem so intent on taking it, you can have it." First person: "Well there's no need to get hostile about it. I really didn't want it bad enough to argue over it." Second person: "I don't feel like I'm the one starting an argument. You obviously decided to make this into a bigger deal than it is. I'll just find a different coffee shop." First person: "Well fine then... Good luck!" Second person: "No, better luck to you!" Both walk away from the table. The next guy takes it.
The funniest thing is watching one of these situations actually escalate into a "Seattle-style" argument, where each person asserts their moral high ground at an increasingly louder volume, until one of them turns several shades of reds and stomps off like a 4-year old. All over stupid sh*t like a table in a coffee shop that normal human beings don't even waste their time over.
It's like this: say you're in a coffee shop, and there's one table left, and you walk up to it, but notice that someone else is approaching at the same time. Dilemma: what do you do? Just take it, or offer it to the other person? On one hand you want to be nice, but on the other hand you really wanted that table. In the end, you just have to choose one or the other. Take the table and don't look back, or take the high road and offer the table to the other person. There's really no wrong answer here.
UNLESS you're in Seattle. Then the situation would most likely go down like this: First person: "Oh hi, were you going to take this table?" Second person: "Yes I was, but were you going to take it, as well?" First person: "Well I was, because I was actually here a few seconds before you, but if you want it, you can have it." Second person: "Oh, I didn't realize the rules for table occupation in this coffee shop were measured down to the second, but since you seem so intent on taking it, you can have it." First person: "Well there's no need to get hostile about it. I really didn't want it bad enough to argue over it." Second person: "I don't feel like I'm the one starting an argument. You obviously decided to make this into a bigger deal than it is. I'll just find a different coffee shop." First person: "Well fine then... Good luck!" Second person: "No, better luck to you!" Both walk away from the table. The next guy takes it.
The funniest thing is watching one of these situations actually escalate into a "Seattle-style" argument, where each person asserts their moral high ground at an increasingly louder volume, until one of them turns several shades of reds and stomps off like a 4-year old. All over stupid sh*t like a table in a coffee shop that normal human beings don't even waste their time over.
Brilliant response. I only wish I were articulate enough to conjure up such clever passive-aggressiveness.. I actually was at a Starbucks last night, had the whole corner, 4 chair section to myself until a woman walks in and decides, for some reason, to sit *right* next to me when there were many other available chairs and tables. Whatever. I'm cool with it and all. Except I had my boots up on the steel coffee table. First thing she does when she sits down is stare at my aged Uggs and I kindly ask her if they were bothering her. She said, "well, actually, yes they are". "Okay. That's why I asked" and I remove them. I was actually feeling good for taking the initiative to see how she felt and although I was more comfortable with my feet up, it was not a big deal. Except after two minutes of dead silence she then quips up, "And thanks for asking". And for some reason, I'm suddenly annoyed and I have no clue why. Any clues???
It's like this: say you're in a coffee shop, and there's one table left, and you walk up to it, but notice that someone else is approaching at the same time. Dilemma: what do you do? Just take it, or offer it to the other person? On one hand you want to be nice, but on the other hand you really wanted that table. In the end, you just have to choose one or the other. Take the table and don't look back, or take the high road and offer the table to the other person. There's really no wrong answer here.
UNLESS you're in Seattle. Then the situation would most likely go down like this: First person: "Oh hi, were you going to take this table?" Second person: "Yes I was, but were you going to take it, as well?" First person: "Well I was, because I was actually here a few seconds before you, but if you want it, you can have it." Second person: "Oh, I didn't realize the rules for table occupation in this coffee shop were measured down to the second, but since you seem so intent on taking it, you can have it." First person: "Well there's no need to get hostile about it. I really didn't want it bad enough to argue over it." Second person: "I don't feel like I'm the one starting an argument. You obviously decided to make this into a bigger deal than it is. I'll just find a different coffee shop." First person: "Well fine then... Good luck!" Second person: "No, better luck to you!" Both walk away from the table. The next guy takes it.
The funniest thing is watching one of these situations actually escalate into a "Seattle-style" argument, where each person asserts their moral high ground at an increasingly louder volume, until one of them turns several shades of reds and stomps off like a 4-year old. All over stupid sh*t like a table in a coffee shop that normal human beings don't even waste their time over.
I actually think I experienced this the other day. I was waiting in my car for the Ferry to arrive when I look up at a truck a car ahead of me in line. A man got out of this truck and stomp walked over to an SUV from their passenger side and proceeded to loudly, but almost politely tell the driver of that car that her cell phone conversation was TOO LOUD and that she should be quieter.
"Does everyone in the ferry line NEED to HEAR YOUR personal conversation!?!" , he asked.
It was one of the most bizarre encounters I've ever experienced and I lived in NJ for a number of years. I couldn't hear anything she was saying and I was just behind her so I suppose either his hearing was superb or the acoustics were just right for him to be bothered by her conversation. It was over as quickly as it started and nothing further happened. SMH.
I didn't know whether to sympathize with him or drive up next to him and start blaring coldplay just to see what would happen.
I'm originally from the East Coast and never experienced culture shock in this country until I lived in the Midwest. I don't do the bible belt mentality well. My preference in communication is definitely more of the East Coast, tell it to me straight variety.
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Brilliant response. I only wish I were articulate enough to conjure up such clever passive-aggressiveness.. I actually was at a Starbucks last night, had the whole corner, 4 chair section to myself until a woman walks in and decides, for some reason, to sit *right* next to me when there were many other available chairs and tables. Whatever. I'm cool with it and all. Except I had my boots up on the steel coffee table. First thing she does when she sits down is stare at my aged Uggs and I kindly ask her if they were bothering her. She said, "well, actually, yes they are". "Okay. That's why I asked" and I remove them. I was actually feeling good for taking the initiative to see how she felt and although I was more comfortable with my feet up, it was not a big deal. Except after two minutes of dead silence she then quips up, "And thanks for asking". And for some reason, I'm suddenly annoyed and I have no clue why. Any clues???
