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Old 11-10-2013, 05:52 PM
 
Location: US Empire, Pac NW
5,003 posts, read 12,337,043 times
Reputation: 4125

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I, too, marvel at the self-righteousness and self-entitled attitudes that some of these people with the IAM have. They believe that just because they have a bunch of training on top of their high school diplomas (or at most a technology degree from college, which is nothing more than a glorified HS degree in all honesty) that they're special and are the only ones capable of doing their jobs? And that they deserve the salary and benefits they get? I laugh.

Who the flip cares if "oh my products are flying millions of people a day?" And millions also drive cars, and use products that were made with machines made by skilled machinists.

And who cares about the union? They fulfilled their role in getting the government to push for strict labor laws that Americans of all stripes won't give up that easily.

The harsh reality is most of their workers aren't that special. The automotive industry, high tech industrial industry, gas & petroleum, and science instruments fields all have highly skilled workers who would have no problem adapting.

I have a feeling that Boeing's intentions are to go to SC anyway. A no vote will only hasten their leave. Whether it's 777X, a 737 or 757 replacement, or some future airplane, Boeing WILL expand SC. And the union better get used to Boeing cutting benefits and salaries until they're parity with SC. It's going to happen whether they like it or not. And striking over it won't do any good either. Boeing will appease them then the next day announce a large scale shift somewhere else.

If I were in the IAM, I would not be happy, but this is the reality of our world we live in today. And let's be honest; Boeing could easily set up a shop in Mexico if they wanted. Many of their suppliers do today. Finally, there used to be a dozen aerospace companies in America. Now there's 5, and only one commercial provider (two in NA if you count Bombardier) . The days of paying top dollar for top talent are gone. A victim of Boeing's own success.

Sorry, I'm just sick of the attitude of the union, especially when there's millions out there who would LOVE to have their job.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:53 PM
 
Location: West Coast - Best Coast!
1,979 posts, read 3,517,780 times
Reputation: 2343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkpoe View Post
Aside from the fact that Puget Sound plants were also behind pace, do you have a source (not IAM) that confirms both the statement that SC is having an impossible time trying to hire the people or that it hasn't met its goal? Just from looking at the Charleston forum, they seem to be able to hire/bring in outsiders. I have no idea about production.

A lot of people been talking about this on Facebook. Those who don't work for Boeing marvel at the perks and benefits that Boeing offers, even in the new contract. One person who does work for Boeing actually made a comment that if this new contract goes through, then it would be no different than working for Costco or Freddie's--which in turn pissed a lot of people because it was very entitled. One guy who worked for Boeing for the last 22 years said he had better benefits when he first started and that after 4 strikes, he and his workers always end up with less than before. He didn't blame Boeing for this, he admittedly lost all confidence in his union. There's a lot going on, it's not just Boeing messing around, the unions aren't doing favors as well.
This is well known by anyone who works on the 787 program or in the factory in Everett. The media has also been reporting it for a while. My husband is an engineer who works on the factory floor in Everett; he doesn't even work on the 787 and he knows about these problems. It's NO secret that South Carolina has not panned out as the Execs. planned; on the other hand, it's turned out exactly how the Boeing rank and file thought it would.

Here's an article from the Puget Sound Business Journal from August: Charleston won't hit 3 Dreamliners monthly by end of year, to hit goal of 10 - Puget Sound Business Journal

And an example of various blog entries out there: We Party Patriots » Boeing’s Wage-Slashing Move to SC Backfires as Company Can’t Meet 787 Production Demand

Read the comments on those articles. They are just as insightful.

Airplanes are not cars, or iPhones. They are still hand-assembled in many ways. You can't just hire a bunch of new machinists with no experience and expect them to know what to do, or to learn quickly. Boeing has benefited in the past from an experienced workforce that could train the newbies as they came into the system, but SC doesn't have that.

According to my husband, the issue the machinists are most upset about in this proposed contract is that they are basically having their health insurance benefits taken away. They are being asked to pay between $400-$600/month for health insurance, which is essentially non-coverage. I'm not sure what IAM members pay right now for health insurance, but I know it isn't anywhere close to that; my husband is a member of SPEEA, and pays $0 for his health insurance. He is grateful for that, and empathizes with the IAM members who are now being told they must accept what is basically a $400+ pay cut per month in exchange for keeping their job.
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Old 11-11-2013, 07:09 AM
 
7,743 posts, read 15,838,159 times
Reputation: 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueNative View Post
This is well known by anyone who works on the 787 program or in the factory in Everett. The media has also been reporting it for a while. My husband is an engineer who works on the factory floor in Everett; he doesn't even work on the 787 and he knows about these problems. It's NO secret that South Carolina has not panned out as the Execs. planned; on the other hand, it's turned out exactly how the Boeing rank and file thought it would.

Here's an article from the Puget Sound Business Journal from August: Charleston won't hit 3 Dreamliners monthly by end of year, to hit goal of 10 - Puget Sound Business Journal

And an example of various blog entries out there: We Party Patriots » Boeing’s Wage-Slashing Move to SC Backfires as Company Can’t Meet 787 Production Demand

Read the comments on those articles. They are just as insightful.
Not really. There were a couple insightful points, but there were plenty "rah rah Union is better" especially from the second article. Sorry, I am not of the thinking that a "highly skilled, union workforce" is the better and more efficient workforce-- either it is highly skilled or its not; Being unionized doesn't necessarily make for more efficiency. The friend that I was talking about earlier that lost all confidence in his union? That's actually the one thing he complains about: the Union has set it up to make it less efficient, lots of micromanaging and time wasted. Boeing was already a couple years behind when they opened the SC location, so it's essentially par for the course at this point (I know the other plants only recently caught up). One comment that left me scratching my head though was that one poster talking about how SC only finished 6 planes while Everett finished 30 and how it goes to show how much better run it is in Wa... is just odd as Everett is 3-5 times bigger than SC.

Quote:
Airplanes are not cars, or iPhones. They are still hand-assembled in many ways. You can't just hire a bunch of new machinists with no experience and expect them to know what to do, or to learn quickly. Boeing has benefited in the past from an experienced workforce that could train the newbies as they came into the system, but SC doesn't have that.

According to my husband, the issue the machinists are most upset about in this proposed contract is that they are basically having their health insurance benefits taken away. They are being asked to pay between $400-$600/month for health insurance, which is essentially non-coverage. I'm not sure what IAM members pay right now for health insurance, but I know it isn't anywhere close to that; my husband is a member of SPEEA, and pays $0 for his health insurance. He is grateful for that, and empathizes with the IAM members who are now being told they must accept what is basically a $400+ pay cut per month in exchange for keeping their job.
Well, one of the insightful comments was that Charleston does indeed have that skilled, experienced workforce, it's just a lot of them aren't working for Boeing SC because like you said, pay is too low. It is also closer to other cities that do have a lot of skilled workforce. This is the case where Boeing is going to have self-correct it's course in the (near?) future; either it gives in to the Puget Sound/Everett union wants or it starts paying more for that quality work force in SC. IMHO, SC is probably going to be the one to win this round.



As for the insurance, that is actually quite understandable. But I also think that it's going to be the sign to come in the future that all these big companies are going to have the employees pay a much bigger chunk of their insurance. The unfortunate thing about being in the union is that you're going to be forced to pay that much, instead having the option of finding a private insurer that could offer a better coverage at a better rate.
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:13 PM
 
Location: West Coast - Best Coast!
1,979 posts, read 3,517,780 times
Reputation: 2343
The numbers they're reporting are related just to the 787. Boeing Everett is much larger than SC, yes, but we're talking about just the 787 here. Everett also produces the 777, 747 and 767/tanker, but the 30 planes the article refers to is the 787s only, and that line is not 3-5 times bigger in Everett than in SC. It's just a whole lot more efficient.

In terms of unions, I don't think people necessarily think that they help with efficiency. But they do help ensure training and safety, reward seniority and longevity, and protect the workers of this industry that do not have many options (outside of Boeing) in this country.

The union is more important to the machinists than the engineers, I think, because the engineers' skills can more easily transfer to other industries. Most in SPEEA I think would be fine with disbanding the union, particularly if Airbus really does open an engineering center here. The competition would be enough to encourage Boeing to stay on its toes and offer a competitive compensation package.
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Old 11-11-2013, 08:15 PM
 
Location: US Empire, Pac NW
5,003 posts, read 12,337,043 times
Reputation: 4125
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueNative View Post

The union is more important to the machinists than the engineers, I think, because the engineers' skills can more easily transfer to other industries. Most in SPEEA I think would be fine with disbanding the union, particularly if Airbus really does open an engineering center here. The competition would be enough to encourage Boeing to stay on its toes and offer a competitive compensation package.
I think there's a few reasons why the union is more important to the machinists than the engineers. Firstly as you pointed out, many of the engineers can transfer to other companies, and even other countries should they feel like it.

I personally know a dozen Boeing engineers. Every single one of them has been scouted by Bombardier or Gulfstream.

With machinists, good luck finding jobs that pay as well with as good a benefits package as what Boeing pays, even with this new "garbage" contract.

Secondly, I think most engineers are more conservative than the machinists. They think more logically (left brained) and can see both sides of the equation most of the time. Machinists just react emotionally (right brained) to postures and anything that doesn't sweeten their pot gets thrown out as "garbage" and ignores economic realities. Not to mention the harsh reality that most engineers have a higher IQ and can make calculations based on their realities. You saw this with the SPEEA leadership getting their derrieres handed to them by the rank and file with the acceptance of the company contract.

Finally, I know many, many engineers at Boeing who would jump at the chance to work at Airbus if they moved here. The company can't just pick up the engineers and plop them down somewhere else. They saw that when they moved to Oklahoma City. Fully 85-90% of the engineers either quit or retired. I don't think Boeing would experience that outflow per se but I wouldn't be surprised if 25%+ quit or retired if Boeing suddenly said "hey let's go to SC!" Many would say "hey, how about no?" I can sympathize: I hate NASCAR, collared greens, grits, humidity, guns, religion-as-a-substitute-for-culture, football, and country & western music. I love REAL culture, coffee, mild summers and winters, diverse food options, formula 1, irreligious city culture, and relative safety thanks to a more peaceful populace that doesn't need guns as a substitute for law and order. Yeah, I'd hate it there.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:08 AM
 
Location: West Coast - Best Coast!
1,979 posts, read 3,517,780 times
Reputation: 2343
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskercurve View Post
I think there's a few reasons why the union is more important to the machinists than the engineers. Firstly as you pointed out, many of the engineers can transfer to other companies, and even other countries should they feel like it.

I personally know a dozen Boeing engineers. Every single one of them has been scouted by Bombardier or Gulfstream.

With machinists, good luck finding jobs that pay as well with as good a benefits package as what Boeing pays, even with this new "garbage" contract.

Secondly, I think most engineers are more conservative than the machinists. They think more logically (left brained) and can see both sides of the equation most of the time. Machinists just react emotionally (right brained) to postures and anything that doesn't sweeten their pot gets thrown out as "garbage" and ignores economic realities. Not to mention the harsh reality that most engineers have a higher IQ and can make calculations based on their realities. You saw this with the SPEEA leadership getting their derrieres handed to them by the rank and file with the acceptance of the company contract.

Finally, I know many, many engineers at Boeing who would jump at the chance to work at Airbus if they moved here. The company can't just pick up the engineers and plop them down somewhere else. They saw that when they moved to Oklahoma City. Fully 85-90% of the engineers either quit or retired. I don't think Boeing would experience that outflow per se but I wouldn't be surprised if 25%+ quit or retired if Boeing suddenly said "hey let's go to SC!" Many would say "hey, how about no?" I can sympathize: I hate NASCAR, collared greens, grits, humidity, guns, religion-as-a-substitute-for-culture, football, and country & western music. I love REAL culture, coffee, mild summers and winters, diverse food options, formula 1, irreligious city culture, and relative safety thanks to a more peaceful populace that doesn't need guns as a substitute for law and order. Yeah, I'd hate it there.
Agree with everything you said. I've already told my husband that we won't be moving to South Carolina. I would be so miserable there.
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,812 posts, read 5,612,427 times
Reputation: 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellevueNative View Post
This is well known by anyone who works on the 787 program or in the factory in Everett. The media has also been reporting it for a while. My husband is an engineer who works on the factory floor in Everett; he doesn't even work on the 787 and he knows about these problems. It's NO secret that South Carolina has not panned out as the Execs. planned; on the other hand, it's turned out exactly how the Boeing rank and file thought it would.

Here's an article from the Puget Sound Business Journal from August: Charleston won't hit 3 Dreamliners monthly by end of year, to hit goal of 10 - Puget Sound Business Journal

And an example of various blog entries out there: We Party Patriots » Boeing’s Wage-Slashing Move to SC Backfires as Company Can’t Meet 787 Production Demand

Read the comments on those articles. They are just as insightful.

Airplanes are not cars, or iPhones. They are still hand-assembled in many ways. You can't just hire a bunch of new machinists with no experience and expect them to know what to do, or to learn quickly. Boeing has benefited in the past from an experienced workforce that could train the newbies as they came into the system, but SC doesn't have that.

According to my husband, the issue the machinists are most upset about in this proposed contract is that they are basically having their health insurance benefits taken away. They are being asked to pay between $400-$600/month for health insurance, which is essentially non-coverage. I'm not sure what IAM members pay right now for health insurance, but I know it isn't anywhere close to that; my husband is a member of SPEEA, and pays $0 for his health insurance. He is grateful for that, and empathizes with the IAM members who are now being told they must accept what is basically a $400+ pay cut per month in exchange for keeping their job.
It stinks, but out in the real non union world, these kinds of cuts are something people deal with on an annual basis. Every year we all end up having to pay more and more for our medical insurance- sometimes hundreds per month as you mentioned. When will the union wake up to realize they really need to watch how hard they push- what is better, having to pay $400/month for insurance, or have no job and have to go on unemployment? $0 for medical insurance is just very, very rare these days- and I certainly hope the unions understand that. That cannot be the constant goal, not when medical insurance gets exponentially more expensive every year. Even the best companies these days are mostly not offering $0 medical, it's just far, far too expensive.
The reality is that Boeing will make moves to ship these jobs to lower cost areas if the union is not careful. Sure it sucks, sure it is greedy, but it's what the rest of us in all other sectors have to deal with as well. Instead of just demanding moving upward with better and better benefits, they need to compare with what is around them- what other sectors are paying for similar work as a comparison when they are renewing their contracts.
I am not siding with the big greedy corporation, I am just a realist and worried about this because I don't want to see all of these good jobs moved out of the Puget Sound region- as I just said, taking a bit of a cut in benefits is far better than losing your job all together, which just may very well happen this time if the union is not careful.
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: From the Northwest in SC
100 posts, read 212,859 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
All of this is going to bite Boeing in the ass eventually (well, it already has, which is why the company execs keep running around like chickens with their heads cut off). Poor Bill Boeing's legacy is being ruined by a bunch of idiots from McDonnell Douglas. If they were that smart, M-D would still be in business!
Boeing has always been run horribly even before the MD buy-out.
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:11 PM
 
304 posts, read 265,776 times
Reputation: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by eskercurve View Post
I can sympathize: I hate NASCAR, collared greens, grits, humidity, guns, religion-as-a-substitute-for-culture, football, and country & western music. I love REAL culture, coffee, mild summers and winters, diverse food options, formula 1, irreligious city culture, and relative safety thanks to a more peaceful populace that doesn't need guns as a substitute for law and order. Yeah, I'd hate it there.
Most people in the South aren't big NASCAR fans. It is a national "sport" now anyway so I don't know why you associate it with the South. California has races, actually took one away from Darlington in SC.

Nobody would force you to eat grits or collared greens in Charleston. lol

Nobody would force you to go to church. lol you might have to see a church every and then.

Nobody would force you to buy a gun and many people in the South don't own guns.

I have a hard time believing Seattle is more "peaceful" than Charleston SC. Probably more crime there despite more liberal attitudes about guns.

I think Charleston has "irreligious city culture" if by that you mean bars. lol

I think CHarleston's culinary scene is probably better than Seattle's overall.

We have mild winters here and more sunshine. A lot more sunny days. lol

Lot of people don't care about football or country music in SC.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:34 AM
 
16 posts, read 25,368 times
Reputation: 14
it was just reported on the news that Emirates Airlines, which is said to be planning a huge order of 777x, wants that jet to be built in Everett.. period.. and the size of the order actually depends upon where the plane is going to be built.
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