$15 wage protests (condo, contractors, pharmacy)

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by tom331

Then why someone brought up the CEO pay if not trying to use one group against another group?

It's not my fault if you can only understand things in the simplest, most elementary way. I brought up a specific CEO's pay. The one of the company that's been used as the main example. One of your colleagues was the one who mentioned that he was not well paid thus, making it more about them in general. My point was that the company needs it's front line more than the front line needs them and I've explained that already. Then you mentioned class warfare and socialism. Perhaps you thought it was legit but it appeared to be the age old C-D tactic of distracting your opponent from the main topic which, once again, is about minimum wage increases, not about political systems or tactics.

[WriterDude]

Originally Posted by Wilson502

There was another study that said it would add a dollar. Point is, corporations will pass the cost onto consumers one way or another. either by raising prices, reducing staff, reducing employee hours, and automation. You cannot get around this.

This is a good point, because it mirrors the general development of any industrial system:

First, people who are doing productive work hire people. Then they define, refine, and manage their roles. Through experience, they identify efficiencies. Efficiency comes through things like process improvements, eliminating duplicate efforts, identifying unnecessary work, and improved worker skills.

Let's use an example. Let's say someone wants to start a restaurant. That person determines they're going to sell about 2,000 burgers a day, and that an unskilled burger-flipper can flip about 400 burgers a day, so they hire 5 burger flippers.

5 people flipping burgers in a restaurant. Simple. However, after they get better at their job, they can flip more burgers. Let's say they're 20% better flippers, so if you keep 5 line cooks flipping burgers, you can actually flip 2,400 burgers. Maybe a couple of them even get super-flippy and can flip more. But sales are still 2,000 burgers. So you have 400 burgers of unnecessary production capacity. That's a whole person.

Then, let's say the restaurant person decides to invest in the business, and buys larger grills, so the line cooks can flip 800 burgers a day. That's another whole person.

And yes, the restaurant owner only has to pay 3 people to do the work that 5 used to do. I'm sure some people will say that they're "greedy" or "exploitative" if they don't take 5 people's worth of pay and distribute it among the 3 people working, but a reasonable person would say "well, doesn't that let them hire an extra person to clean, or expand their hours, or do other things?"

When efficiency improvements make jobs go away, the work doesn't vanish into a puff of stale perspiration. It's often replaced by the simple fact that the work can be done by fewer people. So what do the two people do? I mean, they're unnecessary to that burger joint, but they're necessary *somewhere*. They could upgrade their skills and take on another position at the same restaurant, if one is available. Or they could find another company that's hiring people into roles that meet their skills. Or they could do something different and go to an unskilled job at another business. Or they could band together with other workers and create their own business.

Beside the issue of irrational economic theories, the most damaging thing in this entire discussion is comparing minimum-wage jobs (designed to be filled by unskilled workers) with careers. This is why $15 for a minimum wage makes no sense. That wage is designed to be the equivalent of a "training wage," if you will, because in most minimum wage models, the people earning minimum have no unique skills. They're doing the lowest-common-denominator activity, selling basic work inputs for what the market will bear.

They deserve opportunity, respect, and encouragement. They deserve to work in an environment where they're not exploited or harassed. However, they should enter these jobs intending to use them to learn to do better jobs.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Wilson502

Actually its not, I've already iterated and others have demonstrated that just a simple wage hike to $15/hr isnt going to resolve the issue as the factors i mentioned prior are why it will more than likely do more harm than good, the key is to finding at what level do the negatives start outweighing the positives. From the evidence ive seen its somewhere around the $11-12/hr mark.

Man you really are dense. I have mentioned several times in this thread that 15 dollars isn't realistic and that's it is the point at which they are aiming. guess you didn't go back and read what was already there but I won't do your research for you. before you address what you think I'm saying, make an effort to actually find out what I said.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Wilson502

I like how it conveniently leaves out the most part important of that blanket statement. And that is of those 400,000 supposed college graduates, what were their majors? There are tens of millions of college grads who are not working those jobs. So now you have to ask, where did they go to school? In the real world all colleges and majors are NOT created equal and DO NOT create equal outcomes. Whenever I read SOB stories of college grads who went to some for profit college or even public school, 99% of them got degrees in fields that had very poor job prospects after college (Liberal Arts). I can assure that a large majority of those 400,000 are more than likely under the same demographic.

Well, I can only provide anecdotal evidence of why that's not true. So, in your opinion, what fields in college would students take that would land them in fast food? I just want you to elaborate a bit on which majors are a waste.

[tom331]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

It's not my fault if you can only understand things in the simplest, most elementary way. I brought up a specific CEO's pay. The one of the company that's been used as the main example. One of your colleagues was the one who mentioned that he was not well paid thus, making it more about them in general. My point was that the company needs it's front line more than the front line needs them and I've explained that already. Then you mentioned class warfare and socialism. Perhaps you thought it was legit but it appeared to be the age old C-D tactic of distracting your opponent from the main topic which, once again, is about minimum wage increases, not about political systems or tactics.

Don't be personal! It is absolutely unacceptable in this forum from insulting others because of different opinion. We are debating minimum wage!

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by tom331

Don't be personal! It is absolutely unacceptable in this forum from insulting others because of different opinion. We are debating minimum wage!

Good. Glad I got you to say that so no more distracting subjects

[Wilson502]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Well, I can only provide anecdotal evidence of why that's not true. So, in your opinion, what fields in college would students take that would land them in fast food? I just want you to elaborate a bit on which majors are a waste.

I would say for starters the ones that typically have the lowest average pay.

30 Worst Paying College Majors: 2013

This provides a good link and they all seem to be liberal arts major that are in declining demand. Also if people got those degrees at non regionally accredited institutions they maybe looked down upon in the job market. Im just showing a plausible answer as to why these college students may end up in these situations is because they are studying in fields that are typically low paying and over saturated.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by Wilson502

Cute Meme, but raising all of Mcdonalds employees in the US to 15/hr would cost a whole lot more than 9 million dollars (try 9 million dollars x 1000). In fact, you will probably start seeing them installing touchscreen kiosks like they are doing in Europe to negate the wage increase for their workers and cut hours.

Also, that meme doesn't even mention one fact I keep saying but the lemmings won't understand: THE MCDONALD'S CORPORATION DOESN'T PAY THE GUY FLIPPING THE BURGERS! ALL THEY DO IS SELL GOODS TO THE FRANCHISEE WHO IS AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY AND IT IS THE FRANCHISEE, NOT THE CORPORATION, THAT PAYS PEOPLE!

Honestly, getting made at McDonald's corp because their franchisees don't pay well is like getting made at Poland Spring because the 711 in which you purchased your Poland spring doesn't pay its workers well.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by Wilson502

Its called being independent and thinking for yourself. The 2 Party system has brainwashed people into thinking there are only 2 sides to every issue since that is the narrative that is sold onto the public whether or not its factually true or not.

Exactly. In a perfect world, there would be no parties and candidates would just run on their own beliefs and philosophies. My philosophy is ultimately "give everyone equal opportunity, but understand we'll always have unequal outcomes." That's why I am for more money being spent on education and healthcare, but not so much welfare. Give everyone the chance to go to school and get a good job, but understand not everyone really wants to do the work said good job requires.

[victorianpunk]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Here you go running in cirlces again man. What is wrong with you? How many times must it be explained to you that, that is not a possibility for everyone? Not everyone can have the skilled jobs you keep stridently repeating they should have. There are only a certain number of them. Ok, people like you are why I've started to use memes. I think you understand pictures better.

Keep in mind most of the college educated people stuck in those jobs have crappy degrees. Sorry, but I don't want to hear any whining from a philosophy major who is stuck working in a deli. I don't even have a degree and I make over $30,000 a year. I was in college and started waiting tables in fine dining...friends, don't let your kids work in fine dining unless they intend to make a career out of it. It's like dealing drugs: I came home with $70-$200 in my pocket every night. It sucked all my motivation to finish college.

Well, now I am making a career out of it and happy, as this is indeed the field I love...and it would be destroyed by a $15 minimum wage.