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Old 07-28-2014, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,274,978 times
Reputation: 7990

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
I find it interesting that I and many others can be following the rules and stuck at a stand-still in rush hour traffic, while some people think they are more important than the rest of us, moving over into the HOV lane and speeding past as single occupants because they are in a hurry. As if we aren't all in a hurry? Their time is more valuable than mine? I do wish they would step up enforcement of this law as I see it ALL THE TIME. I agree with the OP that the fine really needs to be raised- maybe to $500 to really deter people from doing this.

I doubt that they think that they are "more important than the rest of us." Again the HOV system is bad law and a bad system. It wastes road capacity that taxpayers have duly paid for, and creates congestion and a safety issue due to the need to cross to lanes when the HOV driver reaches his exit point.

Suppose the state passed a law saying that only people with blond hair could drive in certain lanes at certain times. Would you conclude that a brunette driving in the blonde lane must think that she is more important? Of course not.

 
Old 07-28-2014, 02:56 PM
 
719 posts, read 981,347 times
Reputation: 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
I doubt that they think that they are "more important than the rest of us." Again the HOV system is bad law and a bad system.
Their motives for cheating the system, and the system's reason for being are not linked, and we can rest assured that there is no such association going on in the minds of violators. Nay, this really is a case of 'I'm too good to wait with the rest of these slobs.' But, hey, you go on being a sheep and thinking to the contrary.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle Area
1,716 posts, read 2,024,354 times
Reputation: 4146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
I find it interesting that I and many others can be following the rules and stuck at a stand-still in rush hour traffic, while some people think they are more important than the rest of us, moving over into the HOV lane and speeding past as single occupants because they are in a hurry. As if we aren't all in a hurry? Their time is more valuable than mine? I do wish they would step up enforcement of this law as I see it ALL THE TIME. I agree with the OP that the fine really needs to be raised- maybe to $500 to really deter people from doing this.
I can only speak for myself, though I would guess i'm not alone. It's not that i think I'm in more of a hurry or that my time is more important than yours. In fact, you may be surprised that you and your needs aren't even part of the equation. The difference is that you, presumably, have great respect for the law and will not challenge it, or don't want to run the risk of a ticket because of the fine or implications on your record. There is nothing wrong with that, but its a crazy conformist attitude to me. I look at the situation and ask myself if I am willing to break this law and possibly get in trouble. that includes the risk of someone else getting hurt, the cost of the fine, the need to be somewhere etc. Then it comes down to a simple risk vs. benefit analysis. Sometimes the risk is worth it, other times not.

Interestingly this morning I was faced with a huge back up. I stayed in the regular lane due to my recent citation. While sitting there I watched the HOV lane go buy with roughly half the cars appearing to be solo drivers. Then there are the people that just pass on the left slowly leap frogging their way to the front, also a very common practice of into and out of the HOV lane repeatedly. Eventually, the risk became worth the benefit and I jumped back in the HOA lane for a few miles
 
Old 07-28-2014, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle Area
1,716 posts, read 2,024,354 times
Reputation: 4146
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
Have you ever approached an area of construction where a highway narrows to one lane? Inevitably, roughly 20-25% of the drivers will ignore the slow lane and drive all the way until the 'faster' lane ends, then ram their way into slow traffic. I never, ever let them in, to the point where I am more than willing to have a car accident to head them off. But it doesn't matter, because someone else will let them in.

These cheaters therefore present a special duality of narcissism and arrogance -- they are both in 'too much of a hurry' to be bothered with lines, and they operate under an umbrella assumption that stupid (re: 'kindly,' but let's go with stupid, too) folks will aid them in completing their transgression. Through and through, they're just bad human beings, though I'd argue that the people who help them out are quite nearly as awful ("which is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him?").

A lone individual driving in the HOV lane is the same personality type, relying on the 'I'm better than you/thanks for being too stupid/kind to report me' equation. The only difference, of course, is that the police are actually attempting to regulate this behavior, and thus the OP and his simpleton's thread of 'help me get out of my wrongdoing!' That people are still attempting to assist him just brings the entire pattern full circle.
You are confusing two types of behavior that may or may not have the same motivation. For me, those are two totally different situations. Your willingness to steadfastly hold your position and not let anyone in, even to the point of contributing to bodily injury, is extremely amusing in light of calling out others as narcissistic and arrogant. You represent a very special kind of road hazard.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that the state of Washington just this week released a study. I didn't catch the source, but i'm sure it can be looked up. I'll try and find it and edit if I do. The study said the correct way to merge for an exit or a lane reduction is to "zipper" in and not to line up. the study said that lining up, as you do, contributes to more accidents and reduced traffic flow. So it would appear, at least to the State of Washington that your refusal to let people "zipper" in is a problem, not a solution.

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/07/...d-drive-ruder/

Last edited by Yakscsd; 07-28-2014 at 03:32 PM.. Reason: Added Link
 
Old 07-28-2014, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,938 posts, read 3,900,184 times
Reputation: 4660
In a way, Yakscsd is doing what is already being done in other cities worldwide. Many charge a toll to drive in the HOV lane solo. He's just set it up himself. Maybe charge a few thousand dollars annually to allow solo drivers to drive in the HOV lane. The money could be used for road improvments or additional enforcement. If the HOV lane becomes too congested, charge more. At some point there would be a balance. My choice, still, would be to get out of bed a little earlier.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,813 posts, read 5,599,095 times
Reputation: 4004
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
I doubt that they think that they are "more important than the rest of us." Again the HOV system is bad law and a bad system. It wastes road capacity that taxpayers have duly paid for, and creates congestion and a safety issue due to the need to cross to lanes when the HOV driver reaches his exit point.

Suppose the state passed a law saying that only people with blond hair could drive in certain lanes at certain times. Would you conclude that a brunette driving in the blonde lane must think that she is more important? Of course not.
I do agree with you that we should do away with HOV lanes and just allow all lanes to be used to help alleviate congestion. But that is a different topic of conversation- since the HOV lanes are in place and the law on how to use them is the law that we are expected to abide by, the people who choose to use them while driving solo are indeed thinking they are more important than the rest of us as they speed by, because they think the law doesn't apply to them, and that they somehow have the right to do something that all the rest of us cannot do.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,274,978 times
Reputation: 7990
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessoftheCape View Post
Their motives for cheating the system, and the system's reason for being are not linked, and we can rest assured that there is no such association going on in the minds of violators. Nay, this really is a case of 'I'm too good to wait with the rest of these slobs.' But, hey, you go on being a sheep and thinking to the contrary.
Why are you wasting your time posting here when you have the ability to read minds? You could be making a fortune in any number of ways if you can read minds.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle Area
1,716 posts, read 2,024,354 times
Reputation: 4146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
I do agree with you that we should do away with HOV lanes and just allow all lanes to be used to help alleviate congestion. But that is a different topic of conversation- since the HOV lanes are in place and the law on how to use them is the law that we are expected to abide by, the people who choose to use them while driving solo are indeed thinking they are more important than the rest of us as they speed by, because they think the law doesn't apply to them, and that they somehow have the right to do something that all the rest of us cannot do.
Not true, you can do it to but you decide the risk is not worth the reward. Everyone can do it and everyone has to apply their own beliefs and values to the decision.
 
Old 07-28-2014, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,274,978 times
Reputation: 7990
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm31828 View Post
I do agree with you that we should do away with HOV lanes and just allow all lanes to be used to help alleviate congestion. But that is a different topic of conversation- since the HOV lanes are in place and the law on how to use them is the law that we are expected to abide by, the people who choose to use them while driving solo are indeed thinking they are more important than the rest of us as they speed by, because they think the law doesn't apply to them, and that they somehow have the right to do something that all the rest of us cannot do.
Let's look at this another way. In China it is fairly common for officials to shut down roads in order to allow honchos clear sailing. Suppose someone there found a way around that so that they could drive on a closed road. Would such a person be guilty of 'thinking that they are more important,' or just the reverse?
https://www.chinadialogue.net/articl...ged-get-on-bus
 
Old 07-28-2014, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Kirkland, WA (Metro Seattle)
6,031 posts, read 6,082,309 times
Reputation: 12508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakscsd View Post
You are confusing two types of behavior that may or may not have the same motivation. For me, those are two totally different situations. Your willingness to steadfastly hold your position and not let anyone in, even to the point of contributing to bodily injury, is extremely amusing in light of calling out others as narcissistic and arrogant. You represent a very special kind of road hazard.
They sure do: bikers call them, "homicidal maniacs" and when riding I exit them out of my way as soon as practicable, using whatever means necessary.

Riding a motorcycle, or rather commuting on one, solves a lot of this HOV dilemma as something of an aside.

Commuting on a bike, including a lot of freeway time, is rather dangerous and exhausting for the biker. I don't really like it, but know lots about it from living in the Bay Area many years, too. But, necessity sometimes drives my imperative here in Seattle.

More on-point to this thread's current direction, I actually enjoy people who "won't let anyone in" at the end of the merge when I'm riding. On a bike, you pull right in front of them anyway. They lose. 10' is plenty of room. It's funnier if they then lay on their horn, as occasionally happens. Hell, I'm two cars up and one over by that time, the whole point of bike commuting: escape, evade, get away from rolling obstacles (i.e. cars)!

At that point I say, or do, nothing further other than laugh in my helmet: the joke's on those ___ing clowns. Don't like it? Write a letter to Congress, and good luck with that. I too read about...or rather heard about from a peer...the study allegedly suggesting that last-minute entres to the merge are "most efficient" from a flow perspective. Wish I had the link.

Sometimes a bike is the only way to get anywhere quickly in a reasonable fashion during commute hours, however. Other than a car or van pool, which if gamed correctly can be the best of all options in my experience.
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