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Old 09-24-2015, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle
338 posts, read 845,328 times
Reputation: 331

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I was driving south through Kirkland this morning and got a ticket for speeding through a school zone, which I wasn't doing.

When I saw the school zone sign flashing (before I reached it), I slowed to the proper 20 mph. There was no "School Zone End" sign, so as per traffic laws (at least those I learned in Texas), when I passed the sign stating "Speed Limit 35 mph," I accelerated to 30 mph. The police officer who pulled me over said I was doing "31 in a 20 mph school zone." I explained to him that there was no signage marking the end of the school zone so when I saw the speed limit signage changing to 35, I accelerated. He said the school zone "lasts until the end of the road."

Well, first off, that road goes all the way down to Bellevue so define "end of the road." Secondly, when you turn around and go the other direction, the school zone begins for traffic going north right where that speed limit 35 sign was. In other words, that's the school zone's end, not the "end of the road," wherever that is.

I've noticed in Kirkland (just moved here) that most of the school zones don't have any "School zone end" signs and thus, rely on the speed limit change or guesswork to notify drivers where the school zone ends.
If I had honestly sped through a school zone, I'd pay the ticket. I'm an honest driver and safety is important. However, I was not speeding through a school zone.

Anyone else noticed this speed trap? Anyone else contested it? I'm honestly considering it.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,061 posts, read 8,284,170 times
Reputation: 6218
Since school zone speeding tickets can be expensive (and bump up your insurance rate), it could be worth your time and trouble to request a contested hearing. You might get off:

Seattle Traffic & Speeding Ticket Frequently asked questions - FAQ

Note that one driver successfully challenged their school-zone photo ticket by showing that the zone was outside the limit established under state law:

Quote:
When contesting his ticket in Federal Way Municipal Court on Aug. 9, Cramer brought a Google-created map of the area that showed Saghalie’s border was 1,090 feet from the designated school zone on 21st Avenue SW. He argued a provision of state law in which school speed zones “may extend 300 feet from the border of the school.”

With the map as evidence, Cramer argued that there could be no school zone at this location by law, and said the 35 mph posted speed limit applied. The judge pro tempore in this case, Mary E. Lynch, dismissed the $210 ticket.
Photo ticket dropped after driver argues school zone's legality - Federal Way Mirror
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Old 09-24-2015, 02:02 PM
 
7,743 posts, read 15,801,145 times
Reputation: 10451
Did you passed the flashing school zone for the opposite direction? That's usually a clue that you left the school zone. If you were ticketed past the sign for the opposite direction, then yes, it was definitely a trap.
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Old 09-24-2015, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Seattle
338 posts, read 845,328 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkpoe View Post
Did you passed the flashing school zone for the opposite direction? That's usually a clue that you left the school zone. If you were ticketed past the sign for the opposite direction, then yes, it was definitely a trap.
Yes, I did. I checked.
Definitely going to contest this.
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Old 09-24-2015, 07:50 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,082 posts, read 80,118,318 times
Reputation: 56871
Some of the smaller, low crime city cops have little else to do and get a little carried away with the tickets. Fight it, and good luck.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:59 PM
 
2,174 posts, read 4,373,596 times
Reputation: 3547
I just got two lovely letters from photo speed enforcement from a school zone with tickets totaling $400. I just barely moved to a new area and wasn't familiar with the zones and both were at night as shown by the photos of my license plate. So not only new the area, but harder to see at night. $400 for going 26 mph in a 20 mph zone. Is there anything I can do to fight these? What can reasons can make them reduce fines in mediation? I'm worried I might have more coming due to delays in getting the mail and finding out about the enforcement of this zone. I had never had this happen before in my life and drive very safely. Of course now that I'm aware of it I will be uber careful.

I find this very abusive and the penalty is not commensurate with the crime. Why can't they send you a $20 or $50 ticket for first offense to bring it to their tax paying citizens attention? Once people get that notice it wouldn't happen again. There is no reason these fines should be so high (one was $164 and the other $246). This is the type of thing that makes people hate governments & bureaucracies to the core. Basically stealing from citizens to line their pockets.

Last edited by ctr88; 02-17-2016 at 06:11 PM..
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:31 PM
 
2,174 posts, read 4,373,596 times
Reputation: 3547
I was doing some research on these photo tickets and the fine is the same if you are going 1 MPH over the school zone speed limit or 10 MPH over. So in Seattle it's a $234 ticket if you are going 21 MPH in a 20 MPH in a photo enforced school zone.

There is usually a buffer zone with police car enforced speed limits, if a cop sees you going say 5-8 MPH over the speed limit they let it slide. They are looking for speed demons going WAY above the speed limit. The tough thing about the photo enforced zones is if you are going 1 MHP over you get hammered with a huge fine..so you really need to slow down to about 15MPH about say 500 feet BEFORE the zone to be 100% safe. Unbelievable.

Let's face it this stuff is not really about safety, it's about greed, entrapment, and use of Gov power to abuse citizens and confiscate money from them. More creative ways to get in people pockets.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle area
9,182 posts, read 12,054,439 times
Reputation: 6400
They shouldn't give you a ticket at night. I agree it's about collecting more money for the city.
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Old 02-18-2016, 12:14 PM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,082 posts, read 80,118,318 times
Reputation: 56871
Most of the school zone speed limits are only during the school hours, or "when children are present", but the cameras are a big cash cow. Some places have removed the red light cameras as they caused more accidents. The speed limit camera violations are not supposed to appear on your record, and in Issaquah, you can fight it or even apply for a payment plan.
As for the amounts, that is just typical of this area. When the median family income is $100k or more, the cities will take advantage of the opportunity, and explain that it "has to hurt" to be an effective deterrent. Driving without insurance is $450 minimum, and failure to provide proof when stopped is a violation and will get you that fine, unless you fight it and prove to the judge that you did have it, and the judge is sympathetic as to your excuse for not having the proof with you.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:03 PM
 
Location: St Thomas, USVI - Seattle, WA - Gulf Coast, TX
811 posts, read 1,134,340 times
Reputation: 2322
kaonevar - Definitely contest that one. I've [successfully] contested a few WA speeding/traffic violation tickets through the years, and that one is most definitely in your favor.

ctr88 - Those damn camera-enforced speed traps are only barely enforceable at all. In my experience, they are not enforceable. It's a moneymaker that banks on you being too busy or too scared to contest it. It's riddled with legal and even constitutional issues that make enforcement really, really difficult (lack of right to confront the witness against you, lack of presumption of innocence due to the registered vehicle owner automatically being the one who is issued a ticket, issues with the automated camera system leading to hearsay, unverified chain of evidence...).

Can they prove it was you driving? No, there's just a photo of your plate, not you. So, maybe it wasn't you. If there is any question as to whether you were driving: end of ticket. Live example: I borrowed my sister's car a year or two ago and ended up with a similar ticket in Puyallup. Of course, she (actually my brother-in-law) received the ticket a month or so later, befuddled. Together, we finally realize that it was me and they filled out the mail-in ticket form to specify that I was the driver (of course I felt awful that I caused them to receive a ticket, so I was all over owning and paying for it). Guess what, they CAN'T enforce the ticket on a driver who is not the registered owner. Case was immediately dismissed. I never received anything in the mail regarding the ticket and they received a dismissal. There's just no way to prove who was driving and they know they're in a legal mess if they even try to venture down that he-said, she-said road. It really is as simple as raising a question as to whether it was you or someone else driving (even between two registered owners). Any fogginess about whether you drove your car on those evenings = no viability in the ticket.

Also, last time I checked (a few years ago, like 5, maybe), school zone speeds ARE specific to the time-of-day and/or to when children are present. Have you taken a close look at the school zone signs since receiving the tickets? Is there any info about the specifications of the zone, or flashing lights during school zone times? It's reasonable that drivers expect flashing lights in a school zone. Without those, especially at night, you have another good argument.

Anyway, based on those few things alone, you have some viable arguments for your tickets, as well. Good luck with that to both of you!
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