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[quote=Just.No;43119570]I'm convinced that's there's no such thing as Non-profit in America. But based on my experiences and speaking with various managers who run these places, they're paid based on the amount of people they shelter over night. They keep a list of names of the people they shelter, they then compile said list and present it to the county or city and request $ per person they shelter, which is usually a pre-agreed upon amount. It's more complicated than that, but that's the gist.
These shelters are competing with one another for "business". It may be under the guise of pretending they just want to help more people and they're the best qualified shelter to do so, but it's nothing more than jockeying for more government $$$.
This is America.... A country that will and has monetized virtually everything.
Hopefully this is where your comments to me end, Just.No. I do understand the model of of agencies being paid per the volume served.
Cynical as I may be about some things, I know real Charity still exists. Goods and services are given to others with no expectation of anything in return. I guess after reading your comments I feel fortunate to have lived in areas with true charity for those who need it. I suspect a couple others who have posted in this thread have seen true charity too.
You don't seem like a very logical person. It has nothing to do with "my standards". What I mean by "meant to be inhabited" is just that.... A structure that was designed to house people. In other words, the designers envisioned said structure having the purpose of housing people for sleep and dwelling.
They're your standards whether you realize it or not. Like I said a full quarter of the worlds population lives in conditions without clean water or electricity in makeshift or temporary structures, same as the people living under the freeway. It's not something unique to our area it's how people live in states of extreme poverty, addiction or deprivation around the world. The idea that people "should" live in purposely designed permanent structures is something we largely accept as normal here, but for much of the 3rd world it's not normal. They, like the folks under the freeway, lack the resources or ability to posses that luxury.
I can only say that i pass Nickelsville on my way to work. And, everything BEFORE it. They turned their layers into dumps. Not the ones in Nickelsville, ones that live out in the grass and bushes, under freeways.
Also, number of panhandlers is progressively increasing with every month. Before, you saw none in suburbs or rural areas. Now, they are everywhere. Technically, not a corner of busy intersection without one or two or four. They do fight for spots too.
What also gets me is abundance of what appears to be younger healthy males bagging for donations.
I'd say, they have some sort of national telepathic mail. If it were good tolerant feeding grounds, they start flocking in. Just like in South Park episode.
I miss g'ol USSR. That was rooted out ruthlessly.
Homelessness is usually one of two things: Mental Illness or Addiction. Show me someone who is homeless who is not suffering from one or both of these two diseases. This is why it isn't a good idea to throw them a few bucks. We need to develop more effective treatment for this population. Yes, it will cost. But what is the cost without?
What about all the people who lost their homes in the sub-prime mortgage implosion? There must have been some major fallout, there. Not everyone could move in with relatives, or recover from the loss and rent.
I agree with you, Gardyloo. There are sub-populations living collectively as "the homeless." That being written, I can think of a few ways two or more of those groups could change their current situation.
I think it is critical to try. Otherwise, children grow up thinking not working and behaving in ways not appropriate are normal.
Oh I agree with you. But having worked in the field for many years, I keep coming back to the question of, "If it doesn't work, what then?"
What do you do in a civil society when people are unable - or refuse - to comply with basic standards of behavior?
If they break a law they can be incarcerated, but with our current system the chances of the behaviors that led to them being in jail being reformed during incarceration are low. It's often the opposite.
If they're not deemed to be dangerous to themselves and others, they can't be forced into rehab or therapy.
So what DO you do? Let them cycle in and out of the penal system forever? Give them a bus ticket to Portland and say cheerio? What happens when Portland does the same?
[True story. A bazillion years ago I worked on what we then called "urban renewal" projects in San Francisco. One of the projects - called the "Golden Gateway" - involved redevelopment of some prime commercial real estate in downtown SF. The area was a hodgepodge of old tenements, warehouses and government buildings, inhabited by many single transient people, shelters etc.
Under the federal rules for the program, the City had to make relocation resources available to people who were going to be displaced by the project - apartments, dislocation payments, etc. But only those who were present on a certain day had to be compensated, so the week before D-day the City rented a bunch of Greyhound buses, literally handed money and tickets to the people in the area, and shipped them to Stockton and Lodi, two towns in the central valley a couple of hours from SF. THEN they did the census. Many of the bus riders came back, but many didn't. I always thought the Credence song "Stuck in Lodi" had something to do with this.]
Do you let them die because they don't comply with those behavior standards? Because they will - through violent crime, disease, under freeways or at the Harborview ER. Does their eulogy always have to be, "Told you so?"
Like I said earlier, this is a really tough problem, and frankly our local governments are not equipped to deal with it very effectively. They lack the financial resources, the skill sets, and as political bodies they're vulnerable to public opinion.
The key - in my mind - is prevention; and that takes decades and a clear vision of aims and methods. I also see it as needing triage: best outcomes first, prevent avoidable deaths, stop the problem from growing while you deal with the situation at hand. Find the sources of hard drugs that they're using and stop them. Stop alcohol sales in defined "impact" areas. If there are kids in the camps, call CPS. But don't expect local government to be the daddy here; this is a problem for all of us.
Oh I agree with you. But having worked in the field for many years, I keep coming back to the question of, "If it doesn't work, what then?"
What do you do in a civil society when people are unable - or refuse - to comply with basic standards of behavior?
If they break a law they can be incarcerated, but with our current system the chances of the behaviors that led to them being in jail being reformed during incarceration are low. It's often the opposite.
If they're not deemed to be dangerous to themselves and others, they can't be forced into rehab or therapy.
So what DO you do? Let them cycle in and out of the penal system forever? Give them a bus ticket to Portland and say cheerio? What happens when Portland does the same?
[True story. A bazillion years ago I worked on what we then called "urban renewal" projects in San Francisco. One of the projects - called the "Golden Gateway" - involved redevelopment of some prime commercial real estate in downtown SF. The area was a hodgepodge of old tenements, warehouses and government buildings, inhabited by many single transient people, shelters etc.
Under the federal rules for the program, the City had to make relocation resources available to people who were going to be displaced by the project - apartments, dislocation payments, etc. But only those who were present on a certain day had to be compensated, so the week before D-day the City rented a bunch of Greyhound buses, literally handed money and tickets to the people in the area, and shipped them to Stockton and Lodi, two towns in the central valley a couple of hours from SF. THEN they did the census. Many of the bus riders came back, but many didn't. I always thought the Credence song "Stuck in Lodi" had something to do with this.]
Do you let them die because they don't comply with those behavior standards? Because they will - through violent crime, disease, under freeways or at the Harborview ER. Does their eulogy always have to be, "Told you so?"
Like I said earlier, this is a really tough problem, and frankly our local governments are not equipped to deal with it very effectively. They lack the financial resources, the skill sets, and as political bodies they're vulnerable to public opinion.
The key - in my mind - is prevention; and that takes decades and a clear vision of aims and methods. I also see it as needing triage: best outcomes first, prevent avoidable deaths, stop the problem from growing while you deal with the situation at hand. Find the sources of hard drugs that they're using and stop them. Stop alcohol sales in defined "impact" areas. If there are kids in the camps, call CPS. But don't expect local government to be the daddy here; this is a problem for all of us.
Gardyloo, This is an excellent post, IMO. I couldn'-t give you another rep point so soon after your last one.
I have limited time today so I will try to get back here late tonight or maybe tomorrow, depending on what happend today. However, I wanted to leave five quick ideas of how to change at least some of the homeless groups.
1. I agree prevention and education so another generation DOESN'T grow up with these beliefs being the norm.
2. Education of policy makers at every level.
3. Money might be limited; however, I have a suggestion how that pool of money could be used differently.
4. Consequences for inappropriate behavior.
5. Rewards or *positive payoffs* especially as behavior is starting to change. I think reinforcementioned of positive behavior is very important. I don't know how often those trying to change get an "Atta girl," or " Atta boy."
I need to stop for now. I'm interested what anyone thinks
Hopefully this is where your comments to me end, Just.No. I do understand the model of of agencies being paid per the volume served.
Cynical as I may be about some things, I know real Charity still exists. Goods and services are given to others with no expectation of anything in return. I guess after reading your comments I feel fortunate to have lived in areas with true charity for those who need it. I suspect a couple others who have posted in this thread have seen true charity too.
Thanks for responding
MSR
I've lost faith in America's (or in people who are of West European descent's) ability to genuinely be good and do things solely out of the goodness of their hearts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkarch
They're your standards whether you realize it or not. Like I said a full quarter of the worlds population lives in conditions without clean water or electricity in makeshift or temporary structures, same as the people living under the freeway. It's not something unique to our area it's how people live in states of extreme poverty, addiction or deprivation around the world. The idea that people "should" live in purposely designed permanent structures is something we largely accept as normal here, but for much of the 3rd world it's not normal. They, like the folks under the freeway, lack the resources or ability to posses that luxury.
Thing is, we don't live in a 3rd world country. If America can spend trillions of dollars on its military (literally more than the next 25 countries combined) and kill innocent men, women, and children then I'm sure that this country could end homelessness if the powers that be really wanted to.
Again, it isn't "my standards". It's modern day Western society's standards. We're not neanderthals living in caves and walking around with clubs. Society progresses, and humanity's "standards" change.
Since you didn't post all of my response to you, I'll post it for you below. This will be my last time responding to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just.No
You don't seem like a very logical person. It has nothing to do with "my standards". What I mean by "meant to be inhabited" is just that.... A structure that was designed to house people. In other words, the designers envisioned said structure having the purpose of housing people for sleep and dwelling.
The designers of a freeway envision people driving on it, not sunbathing on it, or playing basketball, or sleeping under it.... A freeway is meant to be driven on.
The designers of a shirt envision people wearing it to cover their bodies... Not using it as cloth toilet paper, or a dry towel for when they get out of a shower.... A shirt is meant to be worn.
The designers of a plasma TV envision people watching said TV, not using it as a dinner plate, or a kitchen table, or something to lay on..... A TV is meant to be viewed.
If you're sleeping in or under a place that was not meant/designed to be slept in or inhabited in that fashion by the designers, especially if you're not paying for it, then you're homeless.
Passed that homeless community on Dearborn today. It's a mess. Filthy, garbage everywhere.
You should see some of the camps in Ballard. The filth is one of the better attributes. The purses, wallets, cell phones and drug baggies discarded in them are really troubling. Just one camp I looked at near 65th by the marina had hundreds of baggies and piles of burned or cut up credit cards.
You should see some of the camps in Ballard. The filth is one of the better attributes. The purses, wallets, cell phones and drug baggies discarded in them are really troubling. Just one camp I looked at near 65th by the marina had hundreds of baggies and piles of burned or cut up credit cards.
OMG! That's just awful.
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