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Old 10-06-2016, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
17,916 posts, read 24,265,406 times
Reputation: 39032

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Pre-1000 AD solution - subsistence outlaws

High Medieval solution - serfdom (slavery lite)

Early Modern solution - debtors prison/colonial prison colonies in Australia and North America

Current solution - camp whereever you want and scrawl a begging sign on cardboard.

Going Forward - ???
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:01 PM
 
1,500 posts, read 1,765,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
Homelessness is not going to go away all on its own, it is only going to get worse if we don't help, so maybe we should try something different.

Maybe one day we will actually try to solve the issue instead of just sweeping it under the rug.
Okay since we are all so awful at solving the issue and are "sweeping it under the rug". What's your suggestions?
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:07 PM
 
1,500 posts, read 1,765,638 times
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My husband and I just discussed this and as I said the first thing I would do is sell enough money to get on a bus and move somewhere cheaper. There are jobs all over this country and way cheaper places to live. How do I know? Because during the recession I was in college and had a VERY LIMITED budget and found a place to live for $300 a month (split with two other roommates), in a safe, decent area in the Phoenix area. Now anyone can pay $300 a month and there were tons of potential work places around there.

I don't buy into the homeless pity story. If you are a law abiding citizen in this country you will get help. If you are not you will not. Fwiw I work with homeless people frequently so I have enough experience to speak on this topic.
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,065 posts, read 8,325,306 times
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I think you're overestimating the amount of resources that the typical homeless person or family has. Most homeless here are from around here and have already lost or sold most of what they had. Or they might have sold everything they had just to get here, in hopes of landing a job that never materialized.

Summer in Phoenix or Vegas is much more brutal than winter here. I wouldn't wish living in a tent in that heat on anyone.

I have no problem with arresting law breakers or with hiring enough police to do it - if an addiction or mental health condition is the root cause, however, just jailing or imprisoning them for petty non-violent crimes is the most financially wasteful solution, not the least. It might be cheaper to put them up in the Westin, with a credit for room service. Violent or chronic criminals should be jailed, however. Others should be given a chance to get treatment or therapy and to get their lives back together, not necessarily because it is more humane, but because it is more cost-effective.

Lots of people are all for throwing people into jail or prison, but are unwilling to pay taxes to build new jails and prisons.

Now, if they spurn help, refuse treatment or therapy, and continue to commit crimes, then, yes, lock them up.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:16 PM
 
1,500 posts, read 1,765,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
I think you're overestimating the amount of resources that the typical homeless person or family has. Most homeless here are from around here and have already lost or sold most of what they had. Or they might have sold everything they had just to get here, in hopes of landing a job that never materialized.

Summer in Phoenix or Vegas is much more brutal than winter here. I wouldn't wish living in a tent in that heat on anyone.

I have no problem with arresting law breakers or with hiring enough police to do it - if an addiction or mental health condition is the root cause, however, just jailing or imprisoning them for petty non-violent crimes is the most financially wasteful solution, not the least. It might be cheaper to put them up in the Westin, with a credit for room service. Violent or chronic criminals should be jailed, however. Others should be given a chance to get treatment or therapy and to get their lives back together, not necessarily because it is more humane, but because it is more cost-effective.

Lots of people are all for throwing people into jail or prison, but are unwilling to pay taxes to build new jails and prisons.

Now, if they spurn help, refuse treatment or therapy, and continue to commit crimes, then, yes, lock them up.
Valid points. However homelessness starts at a given point so I guess at that breaking point is when stuff should be sold and it's time to move. It's not like one day you have a place to live and a decent life and boom the next you wake up in a tent. It's a gradual process especially in this country. It takes A LOT to evict someone, shut their water off and utilities. It's a series of choices and circumstances that lead up to homelessness.

I was at a crossroads at one point in my life (2008 in college) and I chose to apply like crazy and get any job I could and the I applied more to get a better job, etc; so my point is these homeless folks need to stop being enabled. If people truly want to help it's time to offer these people jobs or skills that will help them prosper not continue their downward spiral.
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,065 posts, read 8,325,306 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minntoaz View Post
Valid points. However homelessness starts at a given point so I guess at that breaking point is when stuff should be sold and it's time to move. It's not like one day you have a place to live and a decent life and boom the next you wake up in a tent. It's a gradual process especially in this country. It takes A LOT to evict someone, shut their water off and utilities. It's a series of choices and circumstances that lead up to homelessness.

I was at a crossroads at one point in my life (2008 in college) and I chose to apply like crazy and get any job I could and the I applied more to get a better job, etc; so my point is these homeless folks need to stop being enabled. If people truly want to help it's time to offer these people jobs or skills that will help them prosper not continue their downward spiral.
You obviously had your act together. Expecting somebody with an addiction or a mental health issue, however, to be able to reboot (or bootstrap) their life without help just isn't realistic. The rare person might be able to do it, but most won't. A sink-or-swim economy has its costs, in that something has to be done with all the detritus that piles up. My point is simply that jailing or imprisoning them costs much more than actually trying to help them.
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Seattle
1,882 posts, read 2,070,346 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minntoaz View Post
It's not like one day you have a place to live and a decent life and boom the next you wake up in a tent.
Unfortunately that IS very often the case.

When I was working developing transitional housing for homeless people in the Seattle metro area, a great many - maybe a majority - of our clients were a teenage females, either pregnant or with one or more babies, who had been kicked out of their family homes. Fortunately there are some resources in the community to assist these young women, but for males it's another story - virtually nothing. And of course they don't possess any life skills, employment skills, usually not much education...

You don't see many teenagers panhandling in the streets; their homelessness is often more concealed - parked cars under freeways, off roadsides in rural areas, couch surfing for months on end. But their numbers are significant and their problems often quite intractable. They are at great risk to become the next generation of tent-dwellers.
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Old 11-27-2016, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Hollywood and Vine
2,077 posts, read 2,009,792 times
Reputation: 4964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minntoaz View Post
I don't buy into the homeless pity story. If you are a law abiding citizen in this country you will get help. If you are not you will not. Fwiw I work with homeless people frequently so I have enough experience to speak on this topic.
I don't believe you then or you need to take a break from helping . I have no living adult family anymore at all - my sister is mentally ill and sometimes on the streets in SF - thats it, my kids cannot help me- ..and some years ago I found myself homeless with a 2 year old after my now ex husband left me during emergency gall bladder surgery. I woke up to find her perched on a stool by my bed with the nurses helping take care of her . I never saw him again . After 14 years of marriage with three kids , a home and 2-3 nice trucks ( no more rednecks for me !). He literally sold everything and left with 2 kids I didn't get to see for years after.

I was very sick and could barely move for months. We were homeless with no help and hadn't broken the law , the shelters are dangerous and have long waiting lists.

My husband now and I were talking about this , you cannot lump all homeless into one category , you have the kind that really do like living this way and I agree they need to go. Then you have the mentally ill ones who have no clue where they are , then you have tons of families /single parents who lost a job or got sick and or disability keeps turning down.

SO many people are just one paycheck , injury or illness/death in family away. In King Co alone the umber of homeless children like another poster mentioned is totally unacceptable.

Last edited by DutchessCottonPuff; 11-27-2016 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:01 PM
 
1,054 posts, read 1,038,484 times
Reputation: 566
One factor is Reagan's shutting down of many psychiatric hospitals, due to costs. Not all but many homeless have mental issues.

To really address this we'd need a very large budget and numerous properly set up decent facilities. This would mean a tax increase which I personally would be ok with.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:06 PM
 
8,812 posts, read 6,770,503 times
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Housing affordability is another factor...we used to have "SRO" hotels and other housing types that allowed people to live for a fraction of normal rents. These have been systematically banned, for reasons that sounded ok at the time but have proven disastrous.

The SRO hotels were firetraps and earthquake traps, and also hated for who lived in them and as visible blight. When one burned down and killed a bunch of people, the City told them to renovate to code or be condemned. Most were torn down, which I hear took 5,000 housing units away in Seattle. For landlords, tearing them down was individually the obvious move, because major renovations never pay off financially with poverty rents. Maybe today non-profits would be able to save a couple thousand of these units but there was no support then.

Seattle has a lot of micro units. This is the only way developers can build cheap units without subsidy. For people without cars and a lot of stuff, they can be a great option. So rather than encourage this, the City raised the square footage requirements, required parking in some areas, and added a bunch of process, which add hundreds of dollars per month to any new micro unit. They're still affordable to most people, but a big chunk of the poor are left out. Why? Neighbors' parking worries, neighbors' classism (or racism?), and the Seattle City Council's hypocrisy about housing access. The smaller units are still ok, but only as student dorms and hotel rooms.

Then we have accessory units. No developer needed. Just a homeowner who wants some help paying the mortgage. Seattle has something like 120,000 houses within city limits alone, of which at least half have either a sizeable back yard or alley space or a basement. But again, classism, parking, and a general kowtowing to nimbys by Council has made accessory units all but impossible.
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