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Old 05-07-2023, 06:54 PM
 
Location: King County, WA
15,639 posts, read 6,356,526 times
Reputation: 13123

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabogitlu View Post
Most things we do are political experiments. Demolishing thousands of homes in the 1950s to build I-5 through downtown Seattle and dense North Seattle was a gigantic political experiment. What are you suggesting?
I prefer empiricism-based policies, rather than some political unit's latest impulse. If you can't demonstrate a change will make a reliable statistical difference, I have to suspect there is some other motive in mind.
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Old 05-08-2023, 12:07 AM
 
1,368 posts, read 706,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
Sure, but has this actually been demonstrated? A New York study showed no change in accident rates.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloa...rightonred.pdf

If the intent has not been demonstrated through data, then it looks more like another political experiment.
I agree with you, there needs to be a good reason to believe that eliminating right turn on red will reduce collisions. The study you posted didn’t seem to have adequate power to detect a difference… too much variation between the three years prior to the change. Also, definitely not enough data to understand accident levels after the change. Looks like they took part of a year’s data and extrapolated to a full year?

Given that the first pre-change year was low, and the second two were higher, you’d need more data after the change to tell if there had been a significant effect. If you didn’t count the first year, for example, you could claim a significant reduction in overall traffic accidents.

All that to say that a study to determine effect is possible, but difficult, and while I don’t think this study went far enough, I agree with you that a change like this would benefit from a robust suite of studies to back it up.

A better study to determine significance would be one with cameras that documents all ‘near miss’ events, since not all accidents are reported, and probably almost 0% of near misses are reported.

If you have a ZERO tolerance for accidents caused by right on red, however, then I don’t think a study is needed. Eliminating legal right on red by definition eliminates all chance of an accident while a car is legally turning right on red.
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Old 05-08-2023, 08:48 AM
 
Location: King County, WA
15,639 posts, read 6,356,526 times
Reputation: 13123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcos View Post
If you have a ZERO tolerance for accidents caused by right on red, however, then I don’t think a study is needed. Eliminating legal right on red by definition eliminates all chance of an accident while a car is legally turning right on red.
Only if people don't ignore it. Given how often drivers routinely ignore the traffic law, that seems an unlikely outcome.
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Old 05-08-2023, 09:59 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,156 posts, read 80,258,802 times
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Since the speed limit on many Seattle roads was reduced to 25 MPH for the same reason, my experience shows that this too will probably be a failure. When I drive to work it's long Alaskan Way from Dearborn to Belltown, and posted 25, but the traffic is still moving at 40 mph in the early morning. One never sees a cop, other than parked at Starbucks. More often than not I'll see someone run one of the many red lights.
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Old 05-08-2023, 10:09 AM
 
165 posts, read 125,074 times
Reputation: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabogitlu View Post
The first time I was hit by a driver in Seattle, they were turning right on red and didn't even slow down, even though the pedestrian crosswalk sign was on.

This is a big plus for those of us who live in the city. It's a negative for suburbanites who drive into the city, park near their destination, and then drive away.

Who do we design the city for? Its residents, obviously.
I'm sorry this happened to you. If drivers obeyed the "right on red" law and actually came to a complete stop and did not proceed until it was safe to do so, this wouldn't be happening. Sadly, I see a lot of people treating right on red like a green light. Same with stop signs. Laws work well when people obey them...and when they are enforced. So, I can understand why they want to drop the right on red in the cities. But if there is no one there to enforce it...no penalty...I expect we'll see the bad behavior continue. Law-abiding citizens will continue to obey the law as they have been, but the others won't care much.
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Old 05-08-2023, 10:20 AM
 
165 posts, read 125,074 times
Reputation: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcos View Post
I’ve been test driving newer cars and some of the models have such thick and low sloping A pillars that I have to move my entire body forwards and back to look around it when turning. The problem is worse turning left, but pedestrians might be jaywalking even when someone s doing a left turn on green… that’s even more dangerous, since you have to move quickly if there’s oncoming traffic.

Something interesting I learned years ago… Cars in Europe are designed to be less lethal to pedestrians since there’s more interaction in those denser cities… the engine hoods have more give.
When I went from an older car 2005 to a 2019 (same vehicle) the blindspots on the newer model were awful for me. I also had a hard time adjusting to the small rear window with a sharper slope. No wonder the newer cars all have "blind-spot monitoring" and "rear cross-traffic alert." Without these features, you're a bit in the dark.
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