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In there we're in agreement to comparisons. Seattle is much more like Minneapolis. Heck, the two cities compete for the most literate and educated cities perennially, and brag about it.
Chicago one - dimensional? You really must've had a chip on your shoulder when you moved to Chicago. You sound like a New Yorker or San Angelino who moved to Chicago because it was cheaper and then moved out because it "wasn't SoCal or NYC." Good riddance, I hope you don't bring your twisted "vision" to Seattle.
You actually got me thinking and halfway convinced me from your earlier arguments until I read the parts in bold. Did I not just mention the varied industries and service based companies that are based or have major presences in Chicago? And no city that is "one dimensional" could have grown to the size and influence of Chicago. Nor would a "one dimensional" city have 10 million people in the metro area. Surprised? I'm not. It ain't the locals' birthrate that is driving up population, either. You're going to have to seriously elaborate on why Chicago is "one-dimensional" to sound anything close to reliable with your information. You seem to have some education on the background of Chicago, so please, educate me on why it's one-dimensional, in your own opinion. Do follow up with me on PM, I think others are tiring of seeing us flame each other on a Seattle board. If you honestly think what you say, then you'll follow up. If not, I'll just add you to my ignore list, no big deal to me either way.
If it's one thing that Chicago offers is potential for business. Eventually large markets like Chicago snowball and bring more business in just from the potential from the area.
You're right, I'm a New Yorker who went to school in Chicago and worked there for 2 years after graduation. My background probably explains my snootiness toward Chicago. But I never felt the need to be snooty toward Seattle. In other words, I felt that Chicago tried way too hard to be New York and failed to do so, while Seattle, for all its faults, drew me into its culture and taught me a new way to think about life. Chicago didn't teach me much. Seattle did and continues to do so.
Chicago is one-dimensional in the sense that it doesn't offer much cultural value. Let's use a culinary example. I really don't think Charlie Trotter (overrated) would survive without the bankers and traders. But New York cuisine would continue to innovate even without the patronage of New York bankers because New York attracts human and economic capital from around the world. Chicago doesn't.
DC is another one-dimensional city. Without the White House, DC has no influence on the world. DC's influence is mostly political, not cultural or economic.
Chicago isn't as one-dimensional as DC. Chicago influences US culture far more than does DC. But take away CME, CBOT, etc., and Chicago is at best Philadelphia and probably more similar to Cleveland. Chicago is arguably one of the top 5 financial centers in the world. Yet its cultural influence is merely regional in scope.
New York's culinary, theater, art, and literary scene isn't dependent on Wall Street, just as Paris doesn't need to be a first rate financial center to maintain its cultural influence.
03-28-2010, 12:47 AM
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To Foodyap:What did Seattle teach you about life in particular, if you care to go further into detail about it? Seattle taught me a lot about life too equally as New York City which is where I come from. Seattle feels like a New York City/Portland Oregon to me and Seattle is so similar yet so different to New York. I am most fascinated by these two cities out of all the cities in America.
What do you think Seattle's faults are?
Honestly, I know people who are from New York who have this arrogant, holier than thou attitude and, entitlement but are actually not that cultured and worldly themselves. They are also narrow minded. They think they are "so much better than other people form elsewhere" just because they are from New York. I have friends more cultured and wordly than they are who live in places like rural Ohio and Pennsylvania even. There are cultured people I know in New York but Im just trying to make a point that there is this cultural one dimensional side to New York. Did you ever hear "Empire State of Mind" by Jay z. That song describes the horrible narrow minded one dimensional aspect to New York...
You're right, I'm a New Yorker who went to school in Chicago and worked there for 2 years after graduation. My background probably explains my snootiness toward Chicago. But I never felt the need to be snooty toward Seattle. In other words, I felt that Chicago tried way too hard to be New York and failed to do so, while Seattle, for all its faults, drew me into its culture and taught me a new way to think about life. Chicago didn't teach me much. Seattle did and continues to do so.
Chicago is one-dimensional in the sense that it doesn't offer much cultural value. Let's use a culinary example. I really don't think Charlie Trotter (overrated) would survive without the bankers and traders. But New York cuisine would continue to innovate even without the patronage of New York bankers because New York attracts human and economic capital from around the world. Chicago doesn't.
DC is another one-dimensional city. Without the White House, DC has no influence on the world. DC's influence is mostly political, not cultural or economic.
Chicago isn't as one-dimensional as DC. Chicago influences US culture far more than does DC. But take away CME, CBOT, etc., and Chicago is at best Philadelphia and probably more similar to Cleveland. Chicago is arguably one of the top 5 financial centers in the world. Yet its cultural influence is merely regional in scope.
New York's culinary, theater, art, and literary scene isn't dependent on Wall Street, just as Paris doesn't need to be a first rate financial center to maintain its cultural influence.
Thanks for keeping a level head. I think we simply agree to disagree that Chicago is one-dimensional. I agree on many fronts - Chicago is a regional capitol, it lags in fashion, and to be perfectly honest, Chicagoans have chips on their shoulders too and see NYC and LA and think "well why aren't we like that?" I think the city would be good to get back to its roots in Chicago Blues, Gospel, and start innovating in culture again, and to be 100% honest, lose the passive-aggressive racist mentality (Chicago's still one of the most segregated cities in the USA). It's gotten to be a world renowned city, it's now time to start acting like it. Seattle hasn't quite gotten to be a world renowned city (it's starting to, Sleepless in Seattle, Frasier, the Sounders, Seahawks, and Mariners, and high-tech background are all Americana now, and many Chinese now say Seattle should be their first stop to the US), but it surpasses Chicago in being culturally relevant at this point in time. Chicago's got enormous potential, there's something like 1,000 improv and amateur theatres in Chicago, it just needs that spark and some work to get ahead.
One thing that we both agree on is Seattle is an amazing city. I personally hope that it continues to amaze me and I hope I can contribute in my own little way (when work allows it, LOL, oh man, I tell you designing new airplanes is difficult).
And if I can offer my own thing that Seattle's taught me (even though I'm answering a question not asked of me): It has taught me true acceptance. There are so many different ideals, backgrounds, perspectives, and visions for the future that Seattle HAS to accept others to exist harmoniously. Whereas places like China force a "harmonious" society by policing and forcing the ideals of the state, Seattle is the polar opposite. It reminds me of a sci-fi video game (man I'm sounding like a major nerd now, but that's OK, because that's a big part of Seattle too) where an alien race you interact with has low population and every individual has a very unique set of values.
Now, Seattle's single fault that I can think of is that it doesn't have a strong government which gets things done. Part of that is trying to preserve the amazing natural beauty of this place, but part of it is that one consequence of having A TON of different perspectives is you get a similarly huge number of ideas on how things SHOULD be done. Seattleites are a bit too inclusive when it comes to government, they try to see all the ideas first. That's great, but eventually you gotta make decisions.
Great example is the viaduct. Just tear that eyesore and dangerous thing down already! I don't care at this point whether there's an above ground or below ground replacement. The current structure is unsound. And quit the bickering about the seawall, just fix it! And would someone please just do what should've been done 20 years ago and tear down most of I-5 and reinforce and advance it to the traffic needs of today, with a rail line in the middle that can carry at least 15% of the people who drive everyday?
Last edited by eskercurve; 03-28-2010 at 10:40 AM..
To Foodyap:What did Seattle teach you about life in particular, if you care to go further into detail about it? Seattle taught me a lot about life too equally as New York City which is where I come from. Seattle feels like a New York City/Portland Oregon to me and Seattle is so similar yet so different to New York. I am most fascinated by these two cities out of all the cities in America.
What do you think Seattle's faults are?
Honestly, I know people who are from New York who have this arrogant, holier than thou attitude and, entitlement but are actually not that cultured and worldly themselves. They are also narrow minded. They think they are "so much better than other people form elsewhere" just because they are from New York. I have friends more cultured and wordly than they are who live in places like rural Ohio and Pennsylvania even. There are cultured people I know in New York but Im just trying to make a point that there is this cultural one dimensional side to New York. Did you ever hear "Empire State of Mind" by Jay z. That song describes the horrible narrow minded one dimensional aspect to New York...
Most people in NYC are "arrogant...not that cultured and worldly." It's not unexpected for the junior exec living on York ave or the secretary from South Bronx or the trophy wife on end ave. to put on airs. They have reason (not necessarily good) to be insecure.
Not saying that any one city has a monopoly over certain types of people. But we can and should map a city's influence and contribution - its reputation. A city's reputation has an impact on how its citizen's psyche.
A few issues I have with Seattle:
1. Inadequate transportation infrastructure. I'm still grieving about the loss of the monorail. But at least they're getting close to opening Paine field for commercial operations. Sea-Tac needs to be improved to attract major international carriers.
2. Provincial mindset. A lot of people in Seattle can't figure out how anyone can raise kids in a high-rise. Too many people believe that single-family housing is a right. It's not, and single-family housing isn't green. This mind-set impacts development policies and makes it difficult for Seattle to develop its transportation infrastructure efficiently.
3. Resistance to change. Too many think of any change as an example of greed triumphing over cultural heritage, or something like that. If some of the new buildings are ugly, at least as many old ugly building have been torn down to make room for new developments. Was "old" Ballard really better than Ballard today?
4. Lack of confidence. Seattle needs to stop worrying about Californians and other barbarian invaders. Our lack of confidence makes them bolder. LA may be more influential, but that doesn't make it a better city.
5. Driving style: Inefficient. People don't know how to parallel park so they take up 2 parking spaces. Slow to make turns, accelerate when light turns green, overly careful driving -- exacerbates traffic problems.
6. Strong unions. Unions suck the region dry in so many ways.
7. Too touchy-feely. There may be more corruption and bullying in Chicago, but they get things done. I agree that people in Seattle are too inclusive and care too much about other people's feelings.
What Seattle has taught me about life:
1. I now better understand the interrelationship between humanity, economics, and environment. The economy doesn't start with Wall Street. It starts with efficient use of land resources. I now know how to garden. I pick berries. I enjoy crabbing and fishing and river rafting.
2. How to enjoy life, to live life simply. Seattle is pretentious about being unpretentious. Seattle cuisine -- think Tom Douglas -- is simple and home-grown. Can't say that about Chicago, New York, and definitely not Vegas. Vegas, for instance, built its culinary reputation by attracting popular restaurants from around the world instead of developing its own brand of cuisine based on food grown in its area. There are ways to eat cactus and wild-flowers. New York does something similar but to a lesser extent. They use their reputation as the place to be to attract famous chefs. Like Suzer Lee, from Toronto. High-end Chicago restaurants, mostly supported by bankers, are pretentious. In Seattle, you can walk into just about any restaurant wearing anything.
6. Strong unions. Unions suck the region dry in so many ways.
Don't even get me started. Seattle would not be nearly as prosperous as it is if it weren't for unions. Seattleites wouldn't have the time to do things like crabbing, fishing, berry picking, and gardening if it weren't for the gains made by unions such as the five day work week and the eight hour day.
There are some places that are famous for their lack of unionization. I'm sure Alabama is a very nice place, but...Practically all of the cultural capitals of the world are places with strong unions. They were created because people were being exploited. Absolutely some unions don't have a broad view and long term picture, and rather than have a partnership with their employer, have brought every party down including themselves. The fact remains that 40 years ago the number of Seattle area residents who were members of a union was probably triple the percentage it is now, but I guess that's a good thing because we don't want dirty smelly workers in our town anyway.
Wow this has been an informative thread to say the least.
Foodyap, your last assessment was interesting to read. However when I read it, basically Seattle sounds like many other major US cities and most of the things listed are not unique to Seattle. Perhaps it's just that Seattle does these same things/has these same problems in their own unique way. Let's break your post down a bit:
Quote:
1. Inadequate transportation infrastructure. I'm still grieving about the loss of the monorail. But at least they're getting close to opening Paine field for commercial operations. Sea-Tac needs to be improved to attract major international carriers
Certainly not something that really hold Seattle back much. The city will continue to grow and become more known around the world. San Diego has been fighting this exact same airport issue for the better part of 20 years and this hasn't stopped it from gaining international recognition. In fact these two cities have a lot in common besides this.
Quote:
2. Provincial mindset. A lot of people in Seattle can't figure out how anyone can raise kids in a high-rise. Too many people believe that single-family housing is a right. It's not, and single-family housing isn't green. This mind-set impacts development policies and makes it difficult for Seattle to develop its transportation infrastructure efficiently.
This is true is most major US cities. It's more of a people issue than a city issue. People need to get out of the early 20th century mindset.
Quote:
4. Lack of confidence. Seattle needs to stop worrying about Californians and other barbarian invaders. Our lack of confidence makes them bolder. LA may be more influential, but that doesn't make it a better city.
it's probably safe to say that this is a temporary thing do to growing pains. Again I point to San Diego which was also just like this. San Diegans had a particular dislike for LA at one time and is now coming out of it's provincial mindset of the past. Seattle will get over it too. Hell if SD can start doing so, Seattle definitely will.
Quote:
5. Driving style: Inefficient. People don't know how to parallel park so they take up 2 parking spaces. Slow to make turns, accelerate when light turns green, overly careful driving -- exacerbates traffic problems
I found the driving style in Seattle rather comical when I was there. Like SD, everyone seemed to be in a really big hurry but unlike SD they were polite about it LOL. In SD, you take your life in your hands when crossing the street. In Seattle, drivers seemed more willing to allow peds to cross but then took off again like a bat out of hell.
Quote:
6. Strong unions. Unions suck the region dry in so many ways.
Matter of opinion
Quote:
2. How to enjoy life, to live life simply. Seattle is pretentious about being unpretentious. Seattle cuisine -- think Tom Douglas -- is simple and home-grown. Can't say that about Chicago, New York, and definitely not Vegas. Vegas, for instance, built its culinary reputation by attracting popular restaurants from around the world instead of developing its own brand of cuisine based on food grown in its area. There are ways to eat cactus and wild-flowers.
I tend to disagree with most of this. Many areas are well known for their local cuisine. Even the big chefs use ingredients from other areas made famous in those areas. Maine Lobster for example. Seattle and San Francisco are both known for their west coast style of Seafood. Vegas had no choice; problem with Cactus and wildflowers is that people tend not to eat those in large numbers, just a guess. However Lingcod, Dungeunous Crab and Salmon are things you can likely get people to eat. Again, just a guess.
6. Strong unions. Unions suck the region dry in so many ways.
Don't even get me started. Seattle would not be nearly as prosperous as it is if it weren't for unions. Seattleites wouldn't have the time to do things like crabbing, fishing, berry picking, and gardening if it weren't for the gains made by unions such as the five day work week and the eight hour day.
There are some places that are famous for their lack of unionization. I'm sure Alabama is a very nice place, but...Practically all of the cultural capitals of the world are places with strong unions. They were created because people were being exploited. Absolutely some unions don't have a broad view and long term picture, and rather than have a partnership with their employer, have brought every party down including themselves. The fact remains that 40 years ago the number of Seattle area residents who were members of a union was probably triple the percentage it is now, but I guess that's a good thing because we don't want dirty smelly workers in our town anyway.
Again matter of opinion...but I agree with this one
3. Resistance to change. Too many think of any change as an example of greed triumphing over cultural heritage, or something like that. If some of the new buildings are ugly, at least as many old ugly building have been torn down to make room for new developments. Was "old" Ballard really better than Ballard today?
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I agree on many fronts - Chicago is a regional capitol, it lags in fashion, and to be perfectly honest, Chicagoans have chips on their shoulders too and see NYC and LA and think "well why aren't we like that?" I think the city would be good to get back to its roots in Chicago Blues, Gospel, and start innovating in culture again, and to be 100% honest, lose the passive-aggressive racist mentality (Chicago's still one of the most segregated cities in the USA). It's gotten to be a world renowned city, it's now time to start acting like it. Seattle hasn't quite gotten to be a world renowned city (it's starting to, Sleepless in Seattle, Frasier, the Sounders, Seahawks, and Mariners, and high-tech background are all Americana now, and many Chinese now say Seattle should be their first stop to the US), but it surpasses Chicago in being culturally relevant at this point in time. Chicago's got enormous potential, there's something like 1,000 improv and amateur theatres in Chicago, it just needs that spark and some work to get ahead. 
