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You said that you are 'self-sufficient' then you also said that your neighborhood has a population density of about 15,000 people per square mile.
I am pointing out that these are completely contradictory statements.
They can not co-exist in any context, at any time.
I said nothing about society ceasing to exist.
I claimed I was self-sufficient given there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed.
The other half of this forum is 'preparedness'. I see no reason to have to have the ability to make my own clothes/grow my own food/etc. I am prepared, given my assumption that my city's infrastructure will not completely go away any time soon. I am saying that true preparedness is contradictory to the idea of self sufficiency. I am saying that people working together accomplish more than any individual on his/her own.
Sorry for stirring everyone up! When I jumped into this thread all I was trying to say is that claiming 5 acres is not a lot of space seems crazy to me. That was all!
You said that you are 'self-sufficient' then you also said that your neighborhood has a population density of about 15,000 people per square mile.
I am pointing out that these are completely contradictory statements.
They can not co-exist in any context, at any time.
I said nothing about society ceasing to exist.
When you stop selectively reading my posts and stop leaving parts of what I say out when you quote me, let me know and we can talk like adults. What part of 'self sufficiency' is a term that is dependent on many things. In what context are you self-sufficient? Everyone relies on something or someone else. We have different basis of context for self-sufficiency, and I have explained this before. Go back and re-read what I said and try again. I have explained myself, but the only think you seem to be able to do is blatantly ignore parts of my posts. I am going to post this again. Please try to respond to what I say, for once.
I claimed I was self-sufficient given there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed.
The other half of this forum is 'preparedness'. I see no reason to have to have the ability to make my own clothes/grow my own food/etc. I am prepared, given my assumption that my city's infrastructure will not completely go away any time soon.
I am not going to live in a cave because a disaster MIGHT happen. If you are not claiming that society might not cease to exist, why waste all of the effort being 'self-sufficient?' I have been there, it isn't all it is cracked up to be. Tell me - when you live on your own, how self-sufficient are you really? Did you build your own house? Did you chop down trees? Did you dig the foundation on your own? Do you have electricity? Or are you a hypocrite? Like it or not pal, you DEPEND on other people for your day to day life. If an emergency hits and our homes are leveled, you would be as screwed as the rest of us. Surviving a disaster in a city is as easy as in the country, the skillset needed is simply different.
You are more self-sufficient than me. Obviously. I have more of a support network than you. Obviously. It is a trade-off that everyone makes in an effort towards the 'preparedness' part of this forum.
Thank for the offer. If things get real bad, I have a few isolated areas in the woods here picked out, if I have no land of my own to go to here. Places where the game population is good, and the access for people not so good. Some relatives have some property too. The family's hunting camp in Northern Maine would be a nice hideout if I made it up there...being so far from cities and just a short hike to the Canadian border at that if that became useful...
I am pretty much the same, older though, with limited controll over what happens here. The offer stands. IMO if you go to Maine you will pass south of or north of the pres range, if that happens to be south of food will be here waiting. Unless all Hell breaks loose here. I kinda doubt that. Dm me...
When you stop selectively reading my posts and stop leaving parts of what I say out when you quote me, let me know and we can talk like adults. What part of 'self sufficiency' is a term that is dependent on many things. In what context are you self-sufficient? Everyone relies on something or someone else. We have different basis of context for self-sufficiency, and I have explained this before. Go back and re-read what I said and try again. I have explained myself, but the only think you seem to be able to do is blatantly ignore parts of my posts. I am going to post this again. Please try to respond to what I say, for once.
I claimed I was self-sufficient given there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed.
The other half of this forum is 'preparedness'. I see no reason to have to have the ability to make my own clothes/grow my own food/etc. I am prepared, given my assumption that my city's infrastructure will not completely go away any time soon.
I am not going to live in a cave because a disaster MIGHT happen. If you are not claiming that society might not cease to exist, why waste all of the effort being 'self-sufficient?' I have been there, it isn't all it is cracked up to be. Tell me - when you live on your own, how self-sufficient are you really? Did you build your own house? Did you chop down trees? Did you dig the foundation on your own? Do you have electricity? Or are you a hypocrite? Like it or not pal, you DEPEND on other people for your day to day life. If an emergency hits and our homes are leveled, you would be as screwed as the rest of us. Surviving a disaster in a city is as easy as in the country, the skillset needed is simply different.
You are more self-sufficient than me. Obviously. I have more of a support network than you. Obviously. It is a trade-off that everyone makes in an effort towards the 'preparedness' part of this forum.
I think you missed out on the big part of what people talk about on this board: natural disasters. There are going to be many times in each state's history when a natural disaster makes it impossible to find food, heat, and/or shelter. In the North, it's common for ice storms and Noreasters to drive people to wipe out their grocery stores in entirety. Once the storm hits, power can be out for weeks and it can be impossible to travel on roads in rural areas. Without a stockpile, generator, oil for the generator, etc., you could be in a very dangerous situation. You need to be prepared in places like this because it just won't be possible to get in your car and drive to the store or to a family member's house who is "better positioned" than you. Yes, in all likelihood your city's infrastructure will remain standing but you can't count on stores having products/heat and you can't count on residents restraining themselves from looting/violence when police are occupied with bigger problems of their own.
As for self sufficiency, a lot of people on this board are prepared for (and have already faced) natural disasters so they chose to grow their own foods and have learned to live without electricity. It makes sense to do so if you've been put in a tough situation in the past. In natural emergencies many "self sufficient" people will not be "screwed like the rest of us" because they know how to cope alone--the great majority of Americans don't know how to do that. As for bigger disasters (collapse of the US dollar, terrorist attacks), you're really taking your chances thinking one won't happen in our lifetime. 3 generations ago there was the Great Depression and Dust Bowl, 2 generations ago there was WWI and WWII, last generation there were the Vietnam/Gulf Wars and recession of the early 1980s. Our time is coming this generation and you'd be more prepared by stockpiling, owning arms, learning how to grow food, and knowing how to live without electricity than assuming you'll find a way to survive since "there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed." The infrastructure may be standing, but it may only be a cold shelter. All it will take is an electric plant to go out of service for more than a couple days and everything will turn into havok.
I think you missed out on the big part of what people talk about on this board: natural disasters. There are going to be many times in each state's history when a natural disaster makes it impossible to find food, heat, and/or shelter. In the North, it's common for ice storms and Noreasters to drive people to wipe out their grocery stores in entirety. Once the storm hits, power can be out for weeks and it can be impossible to travel on roads in rural areas. Without a stockpile, generator, oil for the generator, etc., you could be in a very dangerous situation. You need to be prepared in places like this because it just won't be possible to get in your car and drive to the store or to a family member's house who is "better positioned" than you. Yes, in all likelihood your city's infrastructure will remain standing but you can't count on stores having products/heat and you can't count on residents restraining themselves from looting/violence when police are occupied with bigger problems of their own.
As for self sufficiency, a lot of people on this board are prepared for (and have already faced) natural disasters so they chose to grow their own foods and have learned to live without electricity. It makes sense to do so if you've been put in a tough situation in the past. In natural emergencies many "self sufficient" people will not be "screwed like the rest of us" because they know how to cope alone--the great majority of Americans don't know how to do that. As for bigger disasters (collapse of the US dollar, terrorist attacks), you're really taking your chances thinking one won't happen in our lifetime. 3 generations ago there was the Great Depression and Dust Bowl, 2 generations ago there was WWI and WWII, last generation there were the Vietnam/Gulf Wars and recession of the early 1980s. Our time is coming this generation and you'd be more prepared by stockpiling, owning arms, learning how to grow food, and knowing how to live without electricity than assuming you'll find a way to survive since "there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed." The infrastructure may be standing, but it may only be a cold shelter. All it will take is an electric plant to go out of service for more than a couple days and everything will turn into havok.
Good post.
As you suggest there may be a cataclysmic event at any time, that no body can predict.
Also there are things happening the effects of which can be easily predicted.
With our current trend of printing money with no limits, it seems reasonable that inflation may soon take-over and lead to a collapse of our currency.
I watched an interview a week ago with the CEO of Chevron talking about how world-wide oil production peaked in 2007/2008; and how it will never exceed that level and will soon begin to decline; while worldwide demand for petroleum is only increasing. 'Peak Oil' will most certainly effect everyone in our culture.
I think you missed out on the big part of what people talk about on this board: natural disasters. There are going to be many times in each state's history when a natural disaster makes it impossible to find food, heat, and/or shelter. In the North, it's common for ice storms and Noreasters to drive people to wipe out their grocery stores in entirety. Once the storm hits, power can be out for weeks and it can be impossible to travel on roads in rural areas. Without a stockpile, generator, oil for the generator, etc., you could be in a very dangerous situation. You need to be prepared in places like this because it just won't be possible to get in your car and drive to the store or to a family member's house who is "better positioned" than you. Yes, in all likelihood your city's infrastructure will remain standing but you can't count on stores having products/heat and you can't count on residents restraining themselves from looting/violence when police are occupied with bigger problems of their own.
As for self sufficiency, a lot of people on this board are prepared for (and have already faced) natural disasters so they chose to grow their own foods and have learned to live without electricity. It makes sense to do so if you've been put in a tough situation in the past. In natural emergencies many "self sufficient" people will not be "screwed like the rest of us" because they know how to cope alone--the great majority of Americans don't know how to do that. As for bigger disasters (collapse of the US dollar, terrorist attacks), you're really taking your chances thinking one won't happen in our lifetime. 3 generations ago there was the Great Depression and Dust Bowl, 2 generations ago there was WWI and WWII, last generation there were the Vietnam/Gulf Wars and recession of the early 1980s. Our time is coming this generation and you'd be more prepared by stockpiling, owning arms, learning how to grow food, and knowing how to live without electricity than assuming you'll find a way to survive since "there will not be a scenario where an entire city's infrastructure is destroyed." The infrastructure may be standing, but it may only be a cold shelter. All it will take is an electric plant to go out of service for more than a couple days and everything will turn into havok.
I understand your points, however being prepared for a natural disaster and living in fear of one are very, very different things. I have lived in a tent in the wilderness for months before, I have full backpacking gear with an alcohol burning stove and hand-pump water filter in my home. I could easily SURVIVE if a natural disaster strikes. I am not, however going to flee to the boonies and live my life out of fear of an event that most likely will never happen. I refuse to let my day to day life be dictated by an event that most likely will never happen, as some on this board seem to do.
I understand your points, however being prepared for a natural disaster and living in fear of one are very, very different things. I have lived in a tent in the wilderness for months before, I have full backpacking gear with an alcohol burning stove and hand-pump water filter in my home. I could easily SURVIVE if a natural disaster strikes. I am not, however going to flee to the boonies and live my life out of fear of an event that most likely will never happen. I refuse to let my day to day life be dictated by an event that most likely will never happen, as some on this board seem to do.
Personally I see this as you can get there on a moped, or get there on a yacht.
Sure you may be able to survive in a heavily urbanized area, with minimal resources for a period of time (assuming that the urban area is not affected by a natural or man-made disaster that renders that area uninhabitable). Or you can move out of an urban area, buy or build somewhere that is comfortable, habitable, and sustainable so that it's minimally affected by a disaster. Often these people (myself included) do this not only for security reasons, but also for personal reasons, like getting out of the rat race.
My life choice to move rural was just that; a choice. I chose to get the hell out of the rat race that was consuming more and more time, effort, and resources, and achieving very little, beyond causing ulcers and an unhealthy dependency on caffeine. Now working on my property with the investments and income I have from them I have MORE disposable income than I had while working (and not taking income from those investments), and much fewer stressors.
Now from security, I've eliminated some security concerns, a riot here is two people having a bar fight on a Friday night, I doubt very much that if you gave a map to any terrorist organization whether they could point out my location on a map, everyone here needs a stockpile of some form of goods because there are weeks in the winter where you cannot get to "civilization" by road, you can fly but you're limited to 40lbs of hand luggage. There is no dependency on municipal water, or power, because there is no municipality to provide these things. However I have power, communications, heating, lighting, and all the things that I had city living, and much more. Living in the boonies, and being self-sufficient does not mean eschewing modern life or convenience.
Personally I see this as you can get there on a moped, or get there on a yacht.
Sure you may be able to survive in a heavily urbanized area, with minimal resources for a period of time (assuming that the urban area is not affected by a natural or man-made disaster that renders that area uninhabitable). Or you can move out of an urban area, buy or build somewhere that is comfortable, habitable, and sustainable so that it's minimally affected by a disaster. Often these people (myself included) do this not only for security reasons, but also for personal reasons, like getting out of the rat race.
My life choice to move rural was just that; a choice. I chose to get the hell out of the rat race that was consuming more and more time, effort, and resources, and achieving very little, beyond causing ulcers and an unhealthy dependency on caffeine. Now working on my property with the investments and income I have from them I have MORE disposable income than I had while working (and not taking income from those investments), and much fewer stressors.
Now from security, I've eliminated some security concerns, a riot here is two people having a bar fight on a Friday night, I doubt very much that if you gave a map to any terrorist organization whether they could point out my location on a map, everyone here needs a stockpile of some form of goods because there are weeks in the winter where you cannot get to "civilization" by road, you can fly but you're limited to 40lbs of hand luggage. There is no dependency on municipal water, or power, because there is no municipality to provide these things. However I have power, communications, heating, lighting, and all the things that I had city living, and much more. Living in the boonies, and being self-sufficient does not mean eschewing modern life or convenience.
YMMV
I agree completely that it is 100% choice. It simply bugs me when those who live in rural areas think anyone who lives in a city is going to be completely screwed in the event of a disaster. There are pros and cons to both ways of living. I used to live in a town of 300 people an hour and a half's drive from the next town in Wyoming, and now I live in a major city in the northeast. I distinctly see pros and cons of both ways of living, but neither is "better" than the other.
I agree completely that it is 100% choice. It simply bugs me when those who live in rural areas think anyone who lives in a city is going to be completely screwed in the event of a disaster.
The "wild card" that could completely disrupt your illusion of safety and living well in an urban environment are the vast numbers of your city neighbors who don't prepare for ANYTHING.
Yes, in the case of an all-encompassing disaster, either natural or man-made, those of us in rural areas are much better positioned to survive than those of you who choose to remain in metro areas.
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