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. The blogger linked above knows squat. He was considering things like tax rates and people on welfare.
If I'm bugging out, I am sure not paying any taxes much less worrying about what the state tax rates are. I think he was more into retirement in his Winnebago than bug out.
I'll just point out that while agreeing that the author was definitely biased against the east coast like I said in the original post, it may bear emphasizing that the listing sort of pertained to "retreats" more so than exclusively "bugging out."
Though the line between the two sometimes is a bit blurry, because many people want to use a retreat as the place to errr retreat (bug out) to.... this may entail that the retreat has to maintain some semblance of legal legitimacy so as to not get taken away by government (i.e. for tax delinquency) before one even gets to make use of it. So that may be why the author considered things like tax rates and other laws.
In times of exigency, one is less inclined to care about trite malum prohibitum laws (like needing a license to fish.... which many people could probably give a crap less about when they are trying to survive), but before such time of exigency, one may have to keep on the good side of government by not running too far afoul of too many laws, lest they try to give you a hassle about your property (e.g. for building code violations, among other things... aside from the tax issue. And so some weighted consideration should go into the analysis insofar as locating to states where they are more permissive about certain things like building codes).
On the other hand, there are some very small settlements to my west, in basically one of the driest regions of the US, where the people live (right now) in seclusion and have minimal contact with the outside world. I'm thinking chances they would do fairly well in a meltdown are pretty good.
First, hardly anyone knows they are even there; second, the parched desert is not where most people desperate for food or water would go; third, the energy and resources expended to "raid them" would surpass the gain--it simply would not be worth it.....
Just out of curiosity, you ever see that Mesa documentary? NM seems like a bit of a hole, but if there are communities with some people like that depicted in the movie, that might be a decent place for some people to consider as a location either for long or short term living.
I think that "Bug out locations" are short term, and that they have value. But for long term "prosperity prone places", I'd choose on a different set of criteria.
Assuming it's post-SHTF, and petroleum is in short supply...
Prosperity is the creation, trade and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services. Ergo, prosperity prone places will have close proximity to food production, light manufacturing (or the capability to resume mass production), low energy transportation (navigable waterways, railroad rights of way), and inexpensive electrical power (hydropower). IMHO, electric powered rail will become the dominant land transportation in the 21st century.
Also, being part of a community is preferable to being isolated, especially when calamity strikes you.
Planning ahead, one might consider forming cooperatives to build fortified villages in 3P's.
One possible solution:
Dual Ring Village : Ozmirage, Emerald City of Dreams (http://www.ozmirage.org/anic/tiki-index.php?page=Dual%20Ring%20Village - broken link)
One possible solution:
Dual Ring Village : Ozmirage, Emerald City of Dreams (http://www.ozmirage.org/anic/tiki-index.php?page=Dual%20Ring%20Village - broken link)
Thanks for the link, jetgraphics.
Made me think of Venus Project The Venus Project
I guess the answer would involve a few other questions. For me, the first question is whether I'd rather deal with a harsher climate with shorter growing season... or massive urbanization, ridiculous land prices, and endless lists of restrictions--because if you think about it, the reason people flock to certain areas is because it's "not extreme" in climate and/or conditions.
I agree.
Quote:
... For me, the answer is that I'd certainly rather deal with subzero weather in the winter, hands down. And it isn't because I'm antisocial or anything like that (although I do prefer smaller towns and rural areas); it's more that when lots of people flock to a given area, they soon want to tell each other how to live with restrictions, CCR, covenants, zoning, building restrictions and other such nonsense (and impose it on the swallowed up rural land 100 miles in all directions). No thanks. As soon as I see a prospective property that has any hint of CCR or that it's a "gated community," it goes into file 13 immediately. That sort of thing tends not to happen in the north plains country so much, areas were few yuppies want a 50,000 sf "retreat cabin" where they can "rough it" or a place to drive their BMW with the top down in the summer.
Don't forget 'municipal services'.
As crazy as people can be, when they cluster into groups the WANT more cops. They WANT more town clerks. They WANT more building inspectors, they WANT more SPCA officers, more restrictive zoning; and then they gripe because as municipal spending goes up, likewise their taxes go up.
People commonly do not see the connection between their taxes and municipal service.
When people cluster into communities often they desire to have salaried lackeys controlling each other on their tax dollar.
The town we live in caught onto this trend in the 30's and they burned their town charter. No clerk, no inspectors, no humane officers, no zoning and much lower taxes
If you look at the continent from outer space with a filter to detect "city lights" the eastern US looks pretty populated. And, if you were trying to hide a settlement the size of the Queen Mary in a mountain pass the western US would make sense. But if you trying to find a place to hide humans, where they can survive the elements and sustain themselves you would choose the eastern US. The blogger linked above knows squat. He was considering things like tax rates and people on welfare. If I'm bugging out, I am sure not paying any taxes much less worrying about what the state tax rates are. I think he was more into retirement in his Winnebago than bug out.
Not 'all' of the Eastern seaboard is densely populated, but you are correct in saying that most of it is.
Just out of curiosity, you ever see that Mesa documentary? NM seems like a bit of a hole, but if there are communities with some people like that depicted in the movie, that might be a decent place for some people to consider as a location either for long or short term living.
Haven't seen that one. After doing a search, it looks like something that would very interesting, though. From the description, yeah, there are some of those sorts of communities in our "west desert," although they are much smaller. Most of them are more religious outcast in nature, but some are just those who don't fit in or don't want to be part of what we've done in our "modern world," and more than a few primitivist and survivalist types.
There was an interesting book a few years back on the matter--the author/photo documentarian just went around to these places and interviewed the inhabitants. I liked one of the blurbs from a review of the book: When your nearest neighbor lives 25 miles downvalley, it doesn't much matter whether she's a survivalist, a polygamist or a member of the Sierra Club--as long as she's got a spare tire. Sounds like that sort of "alliance" held in the Mesa community, as well.
(full movie - 1':07") [let commercial load for 30 secs, then it will play]
This kind of community and lifestyle may appeal to some people greatly. Others not at all. Your mileage may vary. Shows an assortment of people with different temperaments and a little variety in beliefs. I can dig it, though. Shows that even though people might approach life differently, they can still hold certain common ideals which they all recognize as more important.
(full movie - 1':07") [let commercial load for 30 secs, then it will play]
This kind of community and lifestyle may appeal to some people greatly. Others not at all. Your mileage may vary. Shows an assortment of people with different temperaments and a little variety in beliefs. I can dig it, though. Shows that even though people might approach life differently, they can still hold certain common ideals which they all recognize as more important.
That movie starts interesting but then they talk about government thugs raiding their houses and they basically live on welfare. They are tolerated and more or less left alone by the government because they are unproductive anyway, but it's hardly off grid or self sufficient
That movie starts interesting but then they talk about government thugs raiding their houses and they basically live on welfare.
Indeed, one of them (towards the beginning) talks about wanting to get a "government check" for his supposed "mental problems." And I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them suck the government tit with some kind of other assorted payoffs. Though that's probably not representative of the whole lot. There's people like that everywhere, so there are naturally going to be a few of them there, too.
The movie doesn't quite depict that community as a whole, though... they kind of cherry picked the individuals to make for a more interesting documentary..... you know the drill if you watch television.... kind of like they do with overly dramatized reality shows nowadays. There's a lot of normal people living there that they don't show because they probably are not as interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EuroTrashed
They are tolerated and more or less left alone by the government because they are unproductive anyway, but it's hardly off grid or self sufficient.
Being tolerated and left alone works for me.
As for unproductive..... *shrugs* I'll try to not "read" too much into it.... I'll just make the passing comment that I'm not real big on collectivist notions of obligation to society simply by virtue of being born. Don't really think people have to be productive for the benefit of others they have no obligation to in the general case (i.e. other adults), since that's servitude.
A lot of them are older, anyway, I kind of figured they more or less lived and out in the normal world for most of their lives doing 9 - 5 like everyone else, then maybe just got sick of it at some point and decided to go there.
As for off-grid, many (possibly most) of them are not connected to any municipal utilities (my prior search of properties on the real estate sites doesn't seem to list utilities for any property that I have seen thusfar), so I'd say it pretty much fits the definition. They hump their own water to put in their own cisterns, some do rainwater harvesting, some use solar power, many heat with wood having to do the labor of chopping it, and some try to grow their own vegetables.... though it's the desert, so that's kind of a tough task that may speak a bit more of the baron nature of the land and the general lack of resources available in the desert, perhaps more so than the person. The desert doesn't give you all that much to work with.
It's legit to say they are not totally self-sufficient, but that's a matter of degrees anyway, because as is often discussed on this forum, the truth is few people nowadays can be completely self sufficient. To even bring with you a few metal tools is 'cheating' the concept in the strictest sense, even if you managed to live the rest of your life in isolation, you still relied on others for those tools made by others. Most people no longer have that particular skill set, and for that matter, not even self-sufficiency advocates unanimously want to engage in extreme degrees of isolation or self sufficiency.
Last edited by FreedomThroughAnarchism; 02-27-2011 at 01:25 PM..
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