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Old 08-03-2011, 06:08 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,631,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
Yup, very disturbing. I have a fondness for 10-10-10 fertilizer in the garden as a starter, and later in the season as a side-dress. I used to sell it in 50 lb bags at a WalMart; they were stacked on pallets. I used to keep it under cover, and my boss used to pick on me about it. I told him that old fertilizer was volatile; he pooh-poohed me until I proved it. Just last year I went to a WalMart 3 hours away, and asked for 10-10-10; they didn't sell it anymore. I went to Lowe's, Baumgarr's, and finally ended up at Menard's - where they had it in ten lb bags, that was all. Very frustrating. The only thing I want to "blow up" is the plant size and flowering capabilities!

But our government is trying so hard to 'perteckt us from ourselves' that they are overlooking the loonies or excusing their behavior, and going after the regulation of "things" - things like fertilizer, guns, baseball bats, etc., that don't cause damage to people or buldings without loony people to use them.
While you are generally correct, how do you propose to detect and track these loonies and ultimately disable them before they do something "loonie"?
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,198,297 times
Reputation: 16747
If you wonder why Americans may not trust their government or other nations no longer trust America, here's a simple question:

Name ten countries that America has not invaded, fought, allied with in a war, stationed troops within, or meddled with.

Then name ten countries that Switzerland invaded, fought with, allied with in a war, or stationed troops within, or meddled with.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:11 PM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,631,163 times
Reputation: 3113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
If you wonder why Americans may not trust their government or other nations no longer trust America, here's a simple question:

Name ten countries that America has not invaded, fought, allied with in a war, stationed troops within, or meddled with.

Then name ten countries that Switzerland invaded, fought with, allied with in a war, or stationed troops within, or meddled with.
Your premise is wrong - I think most Americans trust their government. If they didn't, it would not have the powers that it does today and it would not be so large. Mind you, everyone is riled up about the federal govt, but the same intrusions happen on the local and state levels. I live in a county in South Florida where property taxes fund all sorts of services that the county provides. We could live with a quarter of those services but it turns out most of the people living in the county don't mind the high property taxes that fund all these....Hence, they must trust their local govt and love it too, otherwise they would have changed it.

Do I need the local animal shelter to vaccinate dogs and cats for a price that is way lower than in a private vet clinic? Is owning a pet a right or a privilege? Do I need a county paid lifeguard to tell me where I can swim and when? Just small examples, there are PLENTY more...
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,020 posts, read 14,198,297 times
Reputation: 16747
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend View Post
Your premise is wrong - I think most Americans trust their government. If they didn't, it would not have the powers that it does today and it would not be so large.
I disagree.
Most Americans distrust government and the (in)justice system.
And many of the usurped powers are not based on overt consent of the governed, but fraud.

Five small items that most Americans are unaware of:
(a) we've been under a state of emergency for 77 years,
(b) dollar bills are not dollars,
(c) the public debt can never be repaid,
(d) FICA/ SocSec is 100% voluntary - voluntary servitude, and
(e) the public debt cannot be questioned

References:
a) Emergency Powers Statutes, Senate Report SR 93-549, November 19, 1973
b) Title 12 USC Sec. 411, Coinage Act of 1792
c) 14 trillion computes to 700 billion ounces gold. World supply is only 5.3 billion ounces. Where's the gold lent to the US to substantiate the debt?
d) No law compels participation
e) see: sec.4, 14th amendment, USCON

Property Rights: The Hidden Issue of Social Security Reform, Cato Social Security Choice Paper No. 19
"One of the most enduring myths of Social Security is that a worker has a legal right to his Social Security benefits. Many workers assume that, if they pay Social Security taxes into the system, they have some sort of legal guarantee to the system's benefits. The truth is exactly the opposite. It has long been law that there is no legal right to Social Security. In two important cases, Helvering v. Davis and Flemming v. Nestor,the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Social Security taxes are simply taxes and convey no property or contractual rights to Social Security benefits."
How many millions of Americans are SURE that they "paid into" a trust fund and those benefits "belong to them"?

The law and the facts lead one to conclude that America is facing imminent collapse.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:13 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,631,163 times
Reputation: 3113
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I disagree.
Most Americans distrust government and the (in)justice system.
And many of the usurped powers are not based on overt consent of the governed, but fraud.

Five small items that most Americans are unaware of:
(a) we've been under a state of emergency for 77 years,
(b) dollar bills are not dollars,
(c) the public debt can never be repaid,
(d) FICA/ SocSec is 100% voluntary - voluntary servitude, and
(e) the public debt cannot be questioned

References:
a) Emergency Powers Statutes, Senate Report SR 93-549, November 19, 1973
b) Title 12 USC Sec. 411, Coinage Act of 1792
c) 14 trillion computes to 700 billion ounces gold. World supply is only 5.3 billion ounces. Where's the gold lent to the US to substantiate the debt?
d) No law compels participation
e) see: sec.4, 14th amendment, USCON

Property Rights: The Hidden Issue of Social Security Reform, Cato Social Security Choice Paper No. 19
"One of the most enduring myths of Social Security is that a worker has a legal right to his Social Security benefits. Many workers assume that, if they pay Social Security taxes into the system, they have some sort of legal guarantee to the system's benefits. The truth is exactly the opposite. It has long been law that there is no legal right to Social Security. In two important cases, Helvering v. Davis and Flemming v. Nestor,the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Social Security taxes are simply taxes and convey no property or contractual rights to Social Security benefits."
How many millions of Americans are SURE that they "paid into" a trust fund and those benefits "belong to them"?

The law and the facts lead one to conclude that America is facing imminent collapse.
But that's my point. If people truly thought all of the above were serious problems, they would have done something about it.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,176 posts, read 10,686,242 times
Reputation: 9646
I think that a lot of folks sat back and trusted those nice people who asked for their votes for so long, then suddenly woke up and realized that, to those 'nice people' they had 'suddenly' become supernumerary and nothing but a source of income. Jobs started disappearing, Ponzi schemes abounded, their money started disappearing - and those "nice people" kept voting themselves raises and telling people to work harder, buy less, accept being second or even third instead of first in the world. Sadly, it wasn't until they lost everything they were promised - and the politicians kept smiling and telling them not to worry, prosperity was just around the corner, just pay what they owed! - that most folks realized, even partially, what had been going on. Even now, many folks pretend, no, it isn't happening, we'll be fine; Mr-or-Ms Politician said so... but anyone who has balanced their own checkbook and struggled to keep their own credit rating high, knows that there is something in the wind, and it isn't good, unless they are in denial. People feel angry, lied to, and ripped off, and that feeling is growing with every smiling politician who assures them that the recession is over, employment is up, all will be well.

We haven't reached the tipping point yet, but when we do, it'll be like an engineering disaster - It may LOOK stable, even pretty, but one little flick, one slight lean the wrong way, and it will all come down. What will that tipping point be? It could be anything - a real pandemic, a massive earthquake, a collapse of another fiscal bubble, another orchestrated 'fuel shortage' in the dead of winter. Anyone with the sense god gave a goat sees, even if dimly, the knife-edge we are walking on, and they are preparing to survive, not weeks, but months and hopefully longer.

What will happen after? Well, those who think that the government will be there for them, that police officers and social services and all of the other government resources that they have bought and paid for will be right there to help, will suffer while they wait for that succor, even die. Some will get angry and take what they are 'owed' from wherever they can. Those who think that they are safe in their gated communities with their security and their ADT systems are in for a shock; all of the electronic lamb's blood they have painted on their doors for their salvation will be a target. Some folks will huddle in their churches, counting on the salvation they were promised, looking toward the sky, watching for signs. There will be mass murders, so many that no one will be able to count them; there will be no law and no consequences, for the most part. Some folks in some areas will take control and not let the hysteria rope them in; they will either become small 'warlords' with their own little fiefdoms, fighting and overthrowing each other, or will gather first this, than that group together under a mutually beneficial organization. The latter will be the only ones to survive, except for a handful of hermits who actually know how to 'live off the land' (and not the 'survivalists' who, with their insistence on aquiring more weapons than grain, or who emphasize 'taking' over 'growing', will annihilate themselves). As fond as I am of Steven King's writings, there won't be a sweet elderly god-fearing lady to group everyone together and bring them comfort, extoll them to greater achievements or even to beat the devil.

In other words, those who see preparedness and problem-solving as a way of life, not as a temporary tactical exercise, who think calmly and clearly, who plan and regroup and think, will come out of any collapse stronger, more vital, and more knowledgeable. Those who think that any god, any government, any amount of guns or ammo, any amount of stored food and water are their only salvation - won't. Sustainablility is the key; not counting on other peoples' promises, protection, or honesty. Because most people really are honest - until circumstances force them to choose between honest starvation or stealing a loaf of bread. Then they can convince themselves of anything.

Last edited by SCGranny; 08-04-2011 at 06:03 AM..
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:40 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,631,163 times
Reputation: 3113
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
I think that a lot of folks sat back and trusted those nice people who asked for their votes for so long, then suddenly woke up and realized that, to those 'nice people' they had 'suddenly' become supernumerary and nothing but a source of income. Jobs started disappearing, Ponzi schemes abounded, their money started disappearing - and those "nice people" kept voting themselves raises and telling people to work harder, buy less, accept being second or even third instead of first in the world. Sadly, it wasn't until they lost everything they were promised - and the politicians kept smiling and telling them not to worry, prosperity was just around the corner, just pay what they owed! - that most folks realized, even partially, what had been going on. Even now, many folks pretend, no, it isn't happening, we'll be fine; Mr-or-Ms Politician said so... but anyone who has balanced their own checkbook and struggled to keep their own credit rating high, knows that there is something in the wind, and it isn't good, unless they are in denial. People feel angry, lied to, and ripped off, and that feeling is growing with every smiling politician who assures them that the recession is over, employment is up, all will be well.

We haven't reached the tipping point yet, but when we do, it'll be like an engineering disaster - It may LOOK stable, even pretty, but one little flick, one slight lean the wrong way, and it will all come down. What will that tipping point be? It could be anything - a real pandemic, a massive earthquake, a collapse of another fiscal bubble, another orchestrated 'fuel shortage' in the dead of winter. Anyone with the sense god gave a goat sees, even if dimly, the knife-edge we are walking on, and they are preparing to survive, not weeks, but months and hopefully longer.

What will happen after? Well, those who think that the government will be there for them, that police officers and social services and all of the other government resources that they have bought and paid for will be right there to help, will suffer while they wait for that succor, even die. Some will get angry and take what they are 'owed' from wherever they can. Those who think that they are safe in their gated communities with their security and their ADT systems are in for a shock; all of the electronic lamb's blood they have painted on their doors for their salvation will be a target. Some folks will huddle in their churches, counting on the salvation they were promised, looking toward the sky, watching for signs. There will be mass murders, so many that no one will be able to count them; there will be no law and no consequences, for the most part. Some folks in some areas will take control and not let the hysteria rope them in; they will either become small 'warlords' with their own little fiefdoms, fighting and overthrowing each other, or will gather first this, than that group together under a mutually beneficial organization. The latter will be the only ones to survive, except for a handful of hermits who actually know how to 'live off the land' (and not the 'survivalists' who, with their insistence on aquiring more weapons than grain, or who emphasize 'taking' over 'growing', will annihilate themselves). As fond as I am of Steven King's writings, there won't be a sweet elderly god-fearing lady to group everyone together and bring them comfort, extoll them to greater achievements or even to beat the devil.

In other words, those who see preparedness and problem-solving as a way of life, not as a temporary tactical exercise, who think calmly and clearly, who plan and regroup and think, will come out of any collapse stronger, more vital, and more knowledgeable. Those who think that any god, any government, any amount of guns or ammo, any amount of stored food and water are their only salvation - won't. Sustainablility is the key; not counting on other peoples' promises, protection, or honesty. Because most people really are honest - until circumstances force them to choose between honest starvation or stealing a loaf of bread. Then they can convince themselves of anything.
Nice story, but that's all it is

In my humble opinion, people have been brainwashed into believing that working two or three jobs to make ends meet is the American way. Somewhere along the way they also started believing that corporations should have the same rights as individuals and that spending money on politicians is OK (lobbying was NOT designed to be what it is today!). They don't mind seeing new aristocracy rising up, spending money left and right with no remorse. Unfortunately a lot of people would rather have that 60 inch TV and be in debt (and slaves to banks) than stop and ask themselves if that's what life is supposed to be like. With delegation of responsibility comes lack of responsibility and that is evident by now.

I think I have a pretty good sense of justice. I worked for a company where the top layer of people made a great deal of money, they drove to work every week in a different car, BMW, Mercedes, Masseratti etc. The owner had a ship that had a crew of eight, could store 12,000 gallons of diesel, had two 125KW generators on board, in essence, a small town on a ship. When the time came to give raises the past few years, each Christmas we got a few percent - the justification was that the economy was bad etc. All the while the same people bought themselves new houses, cars, boats etc.

I quit that job on moral grounds, could not watch rich people getting richer, spending thousands on 1st class business trips and staying in 5 star hotels and then telling people how they can't have more than a few % raise around Christmas. To me that was immoral. But, I could quit since I structured my existence in such a way that I did not depend on the income much (yes, I liked the money and yes, I was mid-level manager so income was not small). However, I felt that everything that was happening there in terms of compensation was immoral. Everybody thought I was crazy for leaving since all everybody can is $$$ bills.

The moral of the above story is that there were a lot of miserable people in that place who knew what I was telling them was the truth. For one (economic) reason or another, they chose to stay. My conclusion is that we have bred generation after generation of people with no sense of justice and only with a sense of self-preservation or better yet, preservation of their cozy lives. Why be bothered and take a hit for principles? It is easier and just be spineless and justify that with saying that you have a family to support etc. I wonder what that was teaching their kids...

The same people would never say a word in any meeting, they would watch in amazement when I challenged the CEO to answer tough questions. I am pretty sure most of them thought I was stupid for putting my a** on the line.

Yes, I know this is America and that if you don't like it, you can quit your job and start your own business. That's what I did. But the point is that powers that be have lost any desire and see no reason to justify themselves to the ones below. In return, the ones below have lost any desire to question anyone above. If they do, they are labeled troublemakers. "Don't rock the boat" is the common thing said to you when you start asking uncomfortable questions. The above starts in your community, at work, at your local government level and extends all the way up.

Someone very close to me used to say "you can't have sex and remain a virgin". Well, you can't be all comfy all the time and live with your head in the sand. Sometimes there are tough choices to be made. Unfortunately, most people are not interested in that. Words like honor, respect, standing up for what you believe are, I fear, vocabulary of the past.

My $.02
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:46 AM
 
311 posts, read 467,210 times
Reputation: 514
SCGranny...Well said..I agree.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Cody, WY
10,420 posts, read 14,599,129 times
Reputation: 22025
I'll take the lives of the wealthy as my model. Rich people are smart and often interesting people.

Last edited by Happy in Wyoming; 08-04-2011 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:39 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 4,631,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
I'll take the lives of the wealthy as my model. Rich people are smart and often interesting people.
And most of them are incredibly lucky.
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