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Old 09-07-2011, 09:50 AM
 
23,587 posts, read 70,358,767 times
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The ground temperature idea is deceptive. The ground above acts as an insulator and the amount of usable stored "coolth" is less than you might think. That is why ground source heat pumps rely on very long pipes or multiple wells, even though exact temperatures are not critical.

There are ways of creating cool without electricity. Railroads used to do it with steam. Camper refrigerators use heat. Most techniques involve reducing the pressure in a compressed gas, as the process is repeatable. For a one-off cooling, mixing ammonium nitrate fertilizer and water can be effective. Ultimately, compression of a tailored refrigerant is the most energy-efficient. If you are running such a compressor in a batch process, that allows the use of various fuels like solar or wood.

As for milk, storage is no longer a problem. The aseptic boxed containers can be stored on a shelf. Eggs in the shell really don't need refrigeration per se. Chickens don't rot in the weeks it takes them to grow within the shell, and while most eggs sold are infertile, the environment within the shell is the same.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:26 AM
 
1,337 posts, read 1,521,791 times
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No Refrigeration? No Problem! by Barbara Theisen.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:55 PM
 
373 posts, read 635,164 times
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Thumbs up The size of the refrigerator

A refrigerator may not need to be very large or complex. Smaller ones could be the sweet spot in terms of energ use.

A small dorm refrigerator could work. When the home refrigerator stopped, I thought and wondered we really did not need or use use the space well.
I wound up just repairing it as often the problems are electrical rather then the compressor or or freon. If I were to buy a fridge there are many small basic models that would work. Many of the fridges tossed out can be repaired.

I kept a 1950's refregerator along with some other ones in case tennants had a problem. These were some of the most durable. Old GE's when GE was really an American Co. They were rather small, not much freezer space. I never actually saw one of those wear out. I sold the 50's unit and it still works cooling drinks.

The need for a large modern very expensive refrigerator could be reconsidered for many. Many are large budget items with a life span of about 7 years. Many could take a rather large hit when the fridge goes.

One of the issues not just SHTF but a slow decline and individuals and families encountering problems.

Being less dependent on the grid looks like a good idea. The cost per KW could go way up as reliability could go down outside major corporate areas and high end zip codes.

There alot of ways modern, primitvie and cutting edge to deal with eating well and having a secure food supply.

Reviewing and experimenting how not to be dependent on the system is always alot of fun.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Susquehanna River, Union Co, PA
885 posts, read 1,521,195 times
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We have a similar idea : ditch the frig and use our chest freezer to make ice blocks (soda bottles or prefab) and then use a few coolers for fresh food (similar to the OP's ice machine idea). We are usually home to tend to the temp & rotate ice. Has anyone tried this? Of course we're still dependent upon the freezer in that scenario, but it's one less appliance in the house.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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You can always go third world on the meat. Keep it alive till you need it. Why do you think so many people drag chickens around.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Murphy, NC
3,223 posts, read 9,626,918 times
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I'd study up on those ancient ways of keeping a refridgerated room underground without the grid, that seems the most effective. Or that link of that Australian author who claims a way to refridgerate 10-20 times more efficient than a regular fridge. This would only be a luxery when SHTF that I bet most of us won't have. Think of all the times you open the fridge in a day to get something. People will have to learn to live without that. Drink powdered milk, or if you have fresh, store it in a container in a creek overnight like my grandmother did. Ideally I seek a way to have electricity without gas or solar energy, like electromagnetic or hydroelectric, then u just need a battery, and a way to charge it without gas, like maybe a wind up charger.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Susquehanna River, Union Co, PA
885 posts, read 1,521,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanu86 View Post
in a container in a creek
... yep, my G-Aunt had a rope that the stuff was all tied to like a fish stringer

In the documentary 'No Impact Man' they are really stumped by the refrigeration issue & make a sand-pot frig that simply doesn't work.
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:16 AM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,917,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1957TabbyCat View Post
.......
I kept a 1950's refregerator along with some other ones in case tennants had a problem. These were some of the most durable. Old GE's when GE was really an American Co. They were rather small, not much freezer space. I never actually saw one of those wear out. I sold the 50's unit and it still works cooling drinks.......
Those 1950s GE by General Motors appliances were work horses! Still have a 1951 model oven/stove. Now if I could only find a replacemnt element for one side of the oven it would still be good as original.

For those in Northern climates I've read about gathering lake ice in the winter and packing it in straw in a deep hole. I don't know how long this would last if you had to access the hole often for your "refrigerator". I'm not far enough north to give it a test.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:03 AM
 
Location: Cody, WY
10,420 posts, read 14,593,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
For those in Northern climates I've read about gathering lake ice in the winter and packing it in straw in a deep hole. I don't know how long this would last if you had to access the hole often for your "refrigerator". I'm not far enough north to give it a test.
Before the advent of mechanical refrigeration American railroads dug ponds along their rights of way that would fill with water and freeze so they could have ice to cool produce during the summer. They cut the ice and stored it in large wooden sheds. The ice created a microclimate which preserved it through the summer.

Ice became a regular export from New England. Here's a fascinating book that discusses the topic. There are some very informative reviews.

Knowledge is power.

Amazon.com: The Frozen Water Trade: A True Story (9780786886401): Gavin Weightman: Books

City of Evanston, WY - Official Website - Ice Ponds

Historic Evanston Photos

http://www.evanstonwy.org/DocumentView.aspx?DID=164

Last edited by Happy in Wyoming; 09-12-2011 at 06:18 AM..
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
6,756 posts, read 8,573,379 times
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Well the word has come down from on high, (my mother). She wants a new springhouse at site 3, (the cabin) so I guess I know what I will be doing for my 2 week "vacation" this year

My father and I picked out the site and agreed on a design and materials on Sunday. It will have stone foundation and will be built using 6 inch logs set in a vertical orientation, and then will have shiplapped slabs over the outside to seal the spaces and keep out bears. The roof will use 4 inch poles for rafters, and more sawmill slabs shiplapped for the roof. If you have a good pitch, shiplap sheds rain well and is heavy enough to support a lot of snow without collapse.
Leaving the eaves open supports ventilation and prevents any heat buildup from sunlight, and fresh air also prevents molds from building up.

It will be built on a northern slope exposure, in the shade of a mountain to minimize the amount of sunlight to only a couple hours a day.

The floor will be stone layed to provide solid footing and prevent erosion during spring runoff. There is already a natural diversion channel that will take a lot of the highwater so that will also protect the building.

It will be about the size of a large walk-in cooler, (8 feet x 8 feet) with the walls 6 feet high, and the peak of the roof at 8 feet. This is so it is large enough to hang a quartered elk or a couple of deer as during the archery season in Montana, it is still getting into the 80's, and a cool place to put the meat until it can be processed is essential to avoid waste.

I want to put a root cellar at the site as well, but time and funds won't allow that this year. My father and I could build the springhouse in about 2 -3 days once we have the materials gathered from the forest and my favorite rock ledge on the place.

Using the methods described here, the total cost for materials will be about $12 for cement for the corner posts, $30.00 for gate hinges (for the heavy door), and around $25.00 for nails or decking screws, ( I havent decided which yet).

I could build it out of stone, and would do that if the place was going to be lived in as a primary residence, but for the usage it has now, log will work well and be quicker and cheaper.

I will probably put a wooden drop latch on the door as those are simple and sturdy. I can make it heavy enough to prevent a bear breaking in, but still be usable for us as a latch.
The door will also be made of 4 inch poles to keep out the bears, so it will be heavy.

This isn't going to be a fancy springhouse, but long experience has taught us that they work well in our area, and as the cabin sits at 6500 feet elevation, it doesn't get really warm up there even in the height of summer, so a springhouse works well to keep food cool.
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