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All of that being said, I actually don't dislike the idea of communal & alternative living... I have a good friend who lives in communal housing near Mendocino, after "dropping out of society" and living in his car for two years BY CHOICE. He's a well-educated guy with a wealthy upbringing, who used to be a computer programmer at a local university. After getting laid off a few years ago, he decided to forgo job searching in lieu of finding himself instead. He traveled the continent for a while, going as far as the Arctic Ocean, and eventually semi-settled at this "commune" up north. He's eventually planning to return to work, but in a completely different field - fixing and restoring classic (European) cars, which has always been a passion of his.
Anyway, I do see the appeal to this kind of life, and sometimes even envy my friend! I'm just not cut out for all of it, as I'm a bit spoiled by the creature comforts of modern living... and unfortunately those things cost money, so I found a happy medium by following a career I truly enjoy. It's all about personal choices, and provided you aren't mooching off anyone else, I say go ahead and follow your heart.
Wrong - it's currently $8/hr, just $0.50 higher than the average amount you keep quoting. And guess what? It costs more to live here, especially in the bigger metro areas of SF/SJ, LA & San Diego. You know that $650 rent you mentioned earlier? Well, DOUBLE that to get a one-bedroom in any of the bigger California cities... so really $8/hr isn't nearly enough, even for a single person without children living with roommates in a crappy neighborhood.
P.S. I'm the daughter of a CEO, and all it got me (in terms of employment & money) was the funds for college... I had to do the actual WORK myself, including earning both a BA & Masters with honors, and pursuing a career that has nothing to do with my father. Unless you have parents who are willing to fund laziness, even the wealthier children have to work for their own successes. And I happen to love my job, so it's a win-win situation in my case.
Minimum wage in San Fransisco is $10.24...as of Jan 1...
As far as this term 'mooch', that everyone loves to throw around now...
If I win $5 million dollars...and if I'm able to provide a 'safe haven' for certain folks, and or family...
I will want their company, or I would never invite them...
I don't relate to people as if I'm some strict CEO or a company where money is the bottom line...
I realize people aren't robots, who come with charts and graphs where performance data can be reviewed...
I realize people have up and down times in their lives, some folks are used, abused, and exploited and as a result can become damaged...
It is not my aim to mimic the cold sterile corporate enviornment of the monetary system or worshipers...
So if people come to me, (assuming I had a place) a bit discouraged, and in need of repair...I would never use that term 'mooch' on them...never...
Now if they were earning $40,000 a year, and didn't want to help...than yes, that would be selfish on their part...
But as far as people being down and out...I'm not going to come at them with some hard hitting Donald Trump corporate cut throat attitude...rather I'm going to give them a place to recover, to recooperate...
I'm not trying to run my place like some fortune 500 ice cold corporation where the bottom line is money...
The bottom line of my society would be love and compasion...and from that, many great things would arise...
I realize people aren't robots, who come with charts and graphs where performance data can be reviewed...
No, people aren't robots on the job. But when they are hired to serve whatever function, it would be better if they were--or at least as close as possible. When you are hired to do a job, you either do it acceptably or you don't. Pretty simple. Nothing else matters when you've sold your time. You are a function. It's not a social club. It's not the bar on Saturday night. It's not 8 hours on a psychologist's sofa. You're hired to perform a specific task. It's actually quite robotic, or at least it should be. In fact, given unlimited funding, I would assume that robots and artificial intelligence could replace about 99% of the "work" we humans seem to need to validate ourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
The bottom line of my society would be love and compasion...and from that, many great things would arise...
Such as reality? Hand-holding doesn't really accomplish much.
Not trying to be a jerk, but think about it. You have a small "society" of folks who are working toward sufficiency. That takes some hard work that most of us today have never had to do. But it has to be done. As the weeks pass, Joe down the street develops emotional problems and can't carry his weight. He just sits on the floor in the sunlight playin with the dust that dances on the beams in the window. Sue thinks the work is too hard and gives up. She sits on the sofa all day. John is having family problems. He argues all day with his wife, who is now too ****** to do anything productive either. Sara has become an alcoholic and Jim is on drugs. They are in another world all day when they should be getting something accomplished. Big Al weighs 450 pounds and can't do any work. He sits on the couch and eats your winter supplies all day. Pretty soon you have everyone sitting at home and nobody doing the work to prepare for the coming winter. Your entire troop has found a way to take advantage of your compassion. How compassionate are you going to be when you are all starving to death?
No, people aren't robots on the job. But when they are hired to serve whatever function, it would be better if they were--or at least as close as possible. When you are hired to do a job, you either do it acceptably or you don't. Pretty simple. Nothing else matters when you've sold your time. You are a function. It's not a social club. It's not the bar on Saturday night. It's not 8 hours on a psychologist's sofa. You're hired to perform a specific task. It's actually quite robotic, or at least it should be. In fact, given unlimited funding, I would assume that robots and artificial intelligence could replace about 99% of the "work" we humans seem to need to validate ourselves.
Such as reality? Hand-holding doesn't really accomplish much.
Not trying to be a jerk, but think about it. You have a small "society" of folks who are working toward sufficiency. That takes some hard work that most of us today have never had to do. But it has to be done. As the weeks pass, Joe down the street develops emotional problems and can't carry his weight. He just sits on the floor in the sunlight playin with the dust that dances on the beams in the window. Sue thinks the work is too hard and gives up. She sits on the sofa all day. John is having family problems. He argues all day with his wife, who is now too ****** to do anything productive either. Sara has become an alcoholic and Jim is on drugs. They are in another world all day when they should be getting something accomplished. Big Al weighs 450 pounds and can't do any work. He sits on the couch and eats your winter supplies all day. Pretty soon you have everyone sitting at home and nobody doing the work to prepare for the coming winter. Your entire troop has found a way to take advantage of your compassion. How compassionate are you going to be when you are all starving to death?
Again...I'm not trying to run a fortune 500 company here...
You don't think I know all that already?
Nor am I trying to establish some rehabilition type of work camp or boot camp....ok...
The people who come to my community have already been 'raised'...ok...
They're not looking to be rehabilitated, and prepared to go take on society again...rather they see a flaw in that system to begin with, and simply want to live out the remainder of their years under a slower, more meaningful template...
It's simply a alternative...not an end all....
The people who come have probably been damaged by the system, realized they missed out on alot, and simply want some substance to their life...
Some dm love, instead of always being lectured...a time to recooperate and heal...without being told they're 'lazy' or this or that....
We're not cows, being trained or hearded to go serve the system again...
Maybe that's the aim of other groups, but not mine...
Not as high as the $12.00 I read somewhere else...but still it's above $8.00 that you sited...
Maybe it varies from county to county or city to city in California...
Don't be so quick to tell someone else they are wrong, without first doing a bit of research....
Ummm, you're talking to somebody who does research for a living... and I got my information from the U.S. Department of Labor, which is certainly a better source than the LA Times. Actually meant to include the link, so here ya go: U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States (http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#California - broken link)
While it does vary a bit within different cities & counties, you only mentioned the state's minimum wage - which is currently $8. Even in San Francisco it was only raised to $10.24 two weeks ago! And again, do you have any idea how much it costs to live here? I lived in San Francisco for 5 years (now living in the south bay), and was barely squeaking by on $25-30/hr with roommates.
P.S. Either way, you were actually wrong in saying it was $12/hr... so I wasn't jumping the gun on calling you wrong, whether or not I came across as rude in the process.
As far as this term 'mooch', that everyone loves to throw around now...
If I win $5 million dollars...and if I'm able to provide a 'safe haven' for certain folks, and or family...
I will want their company, or I would never invite them...
If somebody is a welcomed guest, whom you have offered to care for, that doesn't (in my opinion) meet the definition of "mooch."
A mooch is more like somebody who imposes their financial needs on another, whether it's one individual or many who are supporting them - or even the government, in the case of people who could work but choose to rely upon welfare instead. In these cases it's unlikely their benefactors are 100% on-board with the arrangement, and would really prefer not to support them... thus, they are a mooch.
The people who come to my community have already been 'raised'...ok...
You don't have a community for people to come to.
I'll try to briefly summarize what others have been trying to tell you.
There are three basic styles of leadership:
1] Democratic -- always fails. Why? People are inclined to take the path of least resistance and effort, and they will never do what needs to be done, what must be done, or what is essential or key to doing in order to be successful.
2] Authoritarian -- exact opposite of Democratic -- moderately successful, if the people accept that style of leadership. The Authoritarian tells people what to do, and they do it. However, problems and issues arrive if people are not receptive to that style, and it ultimately alienates people to one degree or another.
3] Authoritative -- best style. The Authoritative Leader knows when Democracy can be used in decision-making, and when time or other factors are critical and acts authoritarian, unilaterally making a decision and then executing it. The remainder of the time, the Authoritative Leader solicits ideas, suggestions, solutions and information from others, weighs them, builds a consensus (if time or situation permits), adopts a plan and then executes it.
You keep saying that you are not running a Fortune 500 Company, yet in effect, that is exactly what you are doing if you are running a commune.
Are your stocks listed on the DOW? No, but you are still functioning as a Fortune 500 Company.
In a commune environment, an Authoritative Leader would function something like this:
1] You have to walk beans and detassle corn today. You put it up to a vote for members: Walk beans in the morning and detassle corn in the afternoon, or vice versa? That's democratic.
2] A killing frost is coming on Saturday, the Authoritative Leader says we're picking the fruit today so we don't lose it, even though it is pouring rain like cats and dogs and Kim Kardashian's wedding is being broadcast live at 1:00 PM on national TV. End of story. That's authoritarian.
3] We received more money than planned from the sale of our hogs, I propose we do A, B and C with the money. The Authoritative Leader then solicits input and suggestions, gathers information, if necessary builds a consensus then makes the best decision possible.
And I guess the point is that you don't fit any of those styles and because you don't, your commune will not be successful.
Love and compassion cannot suffice for structure and leadership, which you are not able to provide.
I can understand Time and Space's dismay at working conditions today. Several times he/she has mentioned the high deductions taken out of the paychecks, and let's face it, most all of us think taxes are too high (I certainly do!) and regret paying into Social Security if we're never going to be able to collect it. I also get the point that a young person starting out at lower wages has a hard time making ends meet in the type of lifestyle that they've been raised to think they should live. I think these young people are about the age of my own two grown kids, and I recall their frustration with employment some years ago...as well as my own when I was their age.
Most entry-level jobs are not "fulfilling". They don't call it "work" for nothing, so I can understand Chris C's lack of satisfaction or fulfillment with his employment. Nobody said you had to like it (just like with school!), as long as you show up on time and do what is expected. I never cared much for any of my former jobs, which is why I ended up in my own business. I can tell you that I get as frustrated with my business as I ever did with any job. I don't need an employment couselor and neither does Chris. We've both learned to 'man up' and just hit the road every morning.
And the fact that somebody does not have the correct amount of the minimum wage here, there, or anywhere, is just irrelevant. We all know what they mean: the pay is too low to get excited about, and even harder to live on.
But this thread is about communal living, and whether it is possible or not. It IS possible, but not usually pleasant for many of the participants. It may be the only option for some, during a time of severe economic hardship, when a family-like group represents the only hope of survival. But such crises do not last forever -- they last for about 6 months, and you should read history to verify this. If we are unfortunate enough to experience such a crisis, do not be surprised to find communities of extended families, neighbors, and whole small towns clustering more closely for the common good.
This is what my understanding is of what this thread is really all about. All this arguing and name-calling over irrelevancies will not answer the basic question: Is it possible? (I say yes). Under what conditions? (I say crisis). How long can it last? (I say until the crisis ends). But even I will admit that stranger things have happened than a community of people who've grown 'comfortable' living in a community setting.
Are we getting blue in the face yet, arguing over irrelevancies ("nit-picking")???
Ummm, you're talking to somebody who does research for a living... and I got my information from the U.S. Department of Labor, which is certainly a better source than the LA Times. Actually meant to include the link, so here ya go: U.S. Department of Labor - Wage and Hour Division (WHD) - Minimum Wage Laws in the States (http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#California - broken link)
While it does vary a bit within different cities & counties, you only mentioned the state's minimum wage - which is currently $8. Even in San Francisco it was only raised to $10.24 two weeks ago! And again, do you have any idea how much it costs to live here? I lived in San Francisco for 5 years (now living in the south bay), and was barely squeaking by on $25-30/hr with roommates.
P.S. Either way, you were actually wrong in saying it was $12/hr... so I wasn't jumping the gun on calling you wrong, whether or not I came across as rude in the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Are We Blue In The Face Yet???
I can understand Time and Space's dismay at working conditions today. Several times he/she has mentioned the high deductions taken out of the paychecks, and let's face it, most all of us think taxes are too high (I certainly do!) and regret paying into Social Security if we're never going to be able to collect it. I also get the point that a young person starting out at lower wages has a hard time making ends meet in the type of lifestyle that they've been raised to think they should live. I think these young people are about the age of my own two grown kids, and I recall their frustration with employment some years ago...as well as my own when I was their age.
Most entry-level jobs are not "fulfilling". They don't call it "work" for nothing, so I can understand Chris C's lack of satisfaction or fulfillment with his employment. Nobody said you had to like it (just like with school!), as long as you show up on time and do what is expected. I never cared much for any of my former jobs, which is why I ended up in my own business. I can tell you that I get as frustrated with my business as I ever did with any job. I don't need an employment couselor and neither does Chris. We've both learned to 'man up' and just hit the road every morning.
And the fact that somebody does not have the correct amount of the minimum wage here, there, or anywhere, is just irrelevant. We all know what they mean: the pay is too low to get excited about, and even harder to live on.
But this thread is about communal living, and whether it is possible or not. It IS possible, but not usually pleasant for many of the participants. It may be the only option for some, during a time of severe economic hardship, when a family-like group represents the only hope of survival. But such crises do not last forever -- they last for about 6 months, and you should read history to verify this. If we are unfortunate enough to experience such a crisis, do not be surprised to find communities of extended families, neighbors, and whole small towns clustering more closely for the common good.
This is what my understanding is of what this thread is really all about. All this arguing and name-calling over irrelevancies will not answer the basic question: Is it possible? (I say yes). Under what conditions? (I say crisis). How long can it last? (I say until the crisis ends). But even I will admit that stranger things have happened than a community of people who've grown 'comfortable' living in a community setting.
Are we getting blue in the face yet, arguing over irrelevancies ("nit-picking")???
Hmm...interesting...
I see the more 'understanding' are starting to come out now...
But I must clarify something that was raised on another thread also...
This he/she stuff has got to stop...
I am a 'he'...ok....
I hid all my photos...cause when people saw them...maybe they thought I was a 'she' or could pass for one...but that was just 'digital art'...me being silly...exploring things...but I assure you I am a 'he'....
And it baffles me why anyone would be confused about that...but that's a side issue...
Now onto other stuff....
Actually, suprisingly, I've got nothing else to say, you've got me trippen over this he/she thing, and my phone keeps ringing...
Distractions...oh my gosh...to many distractions...
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..but that's a side issue...
