SHTF and TEOTWAWKI (wheat, lake, filter, hydrogen)

[Happy in Wyoming]

Originally Posted by PacificFlights

However, in reading this particular forum, it's very common and almost a requiment to call and lump anyone who is not preparing for something, fools and idiots. If that is acceptabke, why isn't it acceptable to question the mentality and emotional state of those who are preparing for a disaster that common sense tells you they will never survive or for an event that will never, ever happen except in their dreams and own distorted reality?

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

Because it's discourteous. This is the survival subforum. We don't attack people on the Fashion or Sports subfora as being grasshoppers. The only reason to attack us here is to show your smug contempt and superiority.

The first quotation is quoted in my original post. I was responding to it. That's the second post. But this poster took one sentence out of context as if that were the thrust of my post, to wit:

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

This is the survival subforum.

Then the poster responded to this sentence taken out of context.

Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara

See^

I don't care if people attack me or my position. But I find a dishonest representation of my post beyond the limit. This sort of behavior is detrimental to the very structure of the entire forum. But the people who don't like this subforum seem to know no limits.

Is someone or something paying them or are they just compulsively disruptive? Neither reason is praiseworthy.

[R_Cowgirl]

Jenny - As a child I remember running to the root cellar ahead of tornadoes, and I remember being impressed even at a young age at the supplies stuffed in the corners along with preparations for hunkering down for days if we had to.

I forgot about that until I went through two hurricanes in Hawaii. If you want a real sense of what can happen, be on an island when the SHTF. I love the people of Hawaii, and many have a great spirit of helping each other. But it also showed me the darker side of human nature and the need to be accountable and responsible for oneself. (I was shopping in the wake of one of the hurricane warnings and some lady started "shopping" in my cart - helping herself to my carefully chosen items. It was a wake up call right there.)

Then when 9/11 happened I was still in Hawaii. The need to be responsible hit me with a ton of bricks. The grocery stores all looked like they were new constructions -- the shelves were bare. People were stocking up on hundred pound bags of rice, cases of food they could never use in a year, and depriving others of even a few weeks worth of food. 50,000 people lost their jobs in Hawaii in the months following 9/11 (tourists weren't flying there!). There were no planes, ships, cruise ships, fishing boats (all needed to bring food and tourists in) for at least 10 days. Lower on the priority list - mail planes, UPS and FedEx planes were delayed even longer. We were cut off from the world, and no one was looking at poor little Hawaii stuck in the middle of the ocean. We were all worried about NYC. (on a side note, some of my mail didn't make it to me till April of 2002. One was a letter mailed from the 36th floor of the WTC on that morning prior to the plane hitting. I looked at that postmark and sat down and cried.)

Because my husband was military we had food. Not because we had base privileges, but because the dear man thought ahead and didn't even tell us. He'd always had us ready with a plan where to meet and how to communicate, but he also had everything we needed all tucked away in a closet in the garage -- food, candles, blankets, first aid, flashlights, even games for the kids. Who knew? It would have been nice if he'd let me in on it, but I learned a huge lesson and have never taken anything for granted since.

Does it matter if it's TEOTW or a huge storm? Either way, you need to have a plan. You need to be awake. You need to remember that in an emergency, the police and military aren't there to save you, they are there to "protect the public not protect individuals." That's written into every city, state and Fed plan out there. Think long and hard about that. If you have children or family members who depend on you, then it is incumbent upon you to have a plan. Period. The Fema websites, the front pages of your phone books (remember those?) and municipal websites all have recommendations.

So - if there's a fire or emergency, where will your family meet? How will you communicate? How will you take care of basic needs? Do you have basic first aid? A way to cook food without a microwave? Food and water? etc etc etc. THESE are the questions people on this forum think about. Sure - we could be wrong... but I'd rather be ready and not need it than need it and wish I'd spent a little more time thinking and planning for it. You owe it to yourself and to those you love.

As PacificFlights pointed out, to each his own. Some are more into this than others. But this forum exists for us to help each other think about contingency planning. That's not wild-eyed crazy. That's common sense and that's community. Since right now 49% of the US population depends upon a government check each month in a rapidly failing economy, it might behoove you to get on board.

[Gungnir]

Originally Posted by PacificFlights

and this is Exacty why this particular forum is laughable in its current state. This forum is not about preparing or self sufficiency, its about the adhereing to the sensationalising of events that creates a world of prepers often based on outragious conspiracies or the dark of the gloom & doom.

Your first sentence isn't exactly a great example of how to win friends and influence people.

You don't get much mileage about preparation, or self-sufficiency if you're considering the sunny day scenario, for instance what do you do if nothing happens, well you don't do much differently at all, what's learned, nothing. Much of the gloom and doom is about many scenario's that are remote possibilities, because to be quite frank people don't know much about what actually will happen in those situations. They're scary to think about in isolation, when you don't fully understand the mechanics of what might be happening in that situation. We mostly all understand the common scenario's of drought, flood, fire, earthquakes, and more common disaster situations. What many people don't understand are the bigger problems, of global economics, EMP/Nuclear, pandemics, so these things are discussed often ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by PacificFlights

All I'm looking for isa place for intelligent dicussion without the tired old rhetoric of the macho "we are ready, your not" attitude.

There is nothing but in reality a lot of tired old rhetoric on all sides, you're either doing it or you're talking about it. Look it's not interesting to know that I'm collecting my firewood for next winter, which is exactly what I'm doing right now, so I'm not going to talk about it, and it's not exactly fun packed and exciting.

99.99% of the discussion on here about the more extreme scenario's are just that. It doesn't just apply to the macho scenario's either, at the end of the day the only person who can answer the question of whether you're ready or not is you, sure if you want to post your prep plans and get your ego stroked or battered, then you could do that too, but a plan is just a plan until its executed. Only you would know whether it's just an ephemeral plan or completed work unit.

Whether you're doing it for the motivations of survival, or because you are doing it for an urge to be more self-sufficient isn't relevant to the planning, your motivations aren't relevant to the steps you need to be self-sufficient for personal reasons or because you have an intrinsic belief in some terrible event that could prevent or eliminate your current life style. Many of the people I know who are working to the goal of self sufficiency do so through the intermediary of preparation or survivalism, since it eliminates any hugely jarring dislocation if an event happens that suspends the current life styles most people currently enjoy.

[SCGranny]

Originally Posted by R_Cowgirl

As PacificFlights pointed out, to each his own. Some are more into this than others. But this forum exists for us to help each other think about contingency planning. That's not wild-eyed crazy. That's common sense and that's community. Since right now 49% of the US population depends upon a government check each month in a rapidly failing economy, it might behoove you to get on board.

Not to mention that some of us on here have been involved with FEMA/Homeland Security emergency mitigation planning - and the most common statement in all of those conferences and classes is - "It's not IF it will happen, but WHEN". I developed the mitigation plan for my county - required by Federal law - and learned all about all sorts of different disaster potentials, everything from the security of nuclear and even natural-gas electricity plants, hospitals, police stations, fire stations, municipal facilities, private and public facilities. I was one of the leaders in mitigation for my county during two hurricanes, and co-ordinated efforts for evacuation (people evacuated through our county, some with nothing but a car and the clothes on their backs), organized shelters, food, fuel, transportation, etc - all in real-life scenarios. I can read a weather map like a meteorologist, have tracked tornadic storms from a chase vehicle, have donned bunker gear and fought monster brush fires to keep them from impinging on structures, and even delivered babies during Hurricane Hugo.

So, um, yeah, I know what can happen, and I also know how little most people are prepared for it; how many go though their lives thinking "Oh, who cares, that will never happen to ME!" - until it does, and they have to depend on the 'kindness of strangers' for their next meal or a shelter out of the rain. I've taken care of a lot of those types; so many that I got tired of the endless hordes of "But I don't have ANYthing (except, of course, their Blackberries, their expensive cars, their jewelry, and their EBT cards)!!"

So betcherazz I prep, and I raised my children (now adults) to prep, and I share what I know about prepping with others. But I don't prep in a panic or out of fear - to me it's just common sense, like buying car or house insurance; I may never use it but I have it. I gave up taking care of the endless streams of others who always need taking care of, and moved to a place where I could take care of me and mine with everything I know and have learned; happily, productively, and independently. Nothing beats going out to the horse and cows and getting nuzzled and gently head-butted; at least THEY don't stand in the middle of the pasture during a thunderstorm, surrounded by grass, endlessly shrieking "I'M HUNGRY! I'M SCARED! FEED ME! I DESERVE TO BE TAKEN CARE OF! NO ONE TOLD ME THIS COULD HAPPEN!"

So, maybe before you get your underoos in a twist about "being treated like idiots" maybe you should Google "preparedness" and see how many people, from individuals to your own government, are trying to help you understand and be prepared for anything, because it is highly unlikely that anyone will be able to do it for you... and you are going to be a drain on other peoples' resources if you expect it.

[MTSilvertip]

My area doesn't get hurricanes, the eastern end of the state gets tornados about once every 20 years or so, but what we do get are blizzards that can knock out power and block roads for days at a time, or weeks if you are in an isolated area.
We get horrendous floods when all that snow melts from an unexpected warm spell in the middle of the winter, or like last year when we had 200% of normal snowfall and then 300% normal rain.
We have wildfires that can force you to run for your life with only what you have in your vehicle and the clothes on your back if you don't think ahead,

While it isn't common, we are the northern edge of the Yellowstone Caldura, so earthquakes also figure in.

This is a remote area, the 4th largest state in the union with just 1 million people, most of them are concentrated in the western 1/3 of the state so a lot of my state has a population density of less than .6 people per square mile.

We don't "prep" here in the modern usage, we are more closely defined as Self Sufficent because having stores of food, fuel, medicine, a way to heat and cook and lights are just the way we live here.

Several years ago the temperatures in February went from -10 to +70 in a matter of hours. The snowpack in the mountains ran off in a torrent that closed all the roads to the north end of the valley we live in.
The manority of people around here didn't rush the stores, they didn't have to because they already had reserves in place to keep going until the waters went down.

In 2000 there were 5 major wildfires within 20 miles of the town burning areas larger than some small states have, the response was the same. Shelters for the displaced were set up but most folks went to friends or families, once the fiires were controlled, everybody helped clean up and get people back to their homes. We only lost less than a dozen homes because defensable spaces around homes are practical prep here because of the fire danger, so the fires went around most of the places.

We have long stretches of highway and gravel roads where you can break down or have mechanical problems with your car. Your cell may not work in that area, and that road may only see a car drive over it once a week or so, or you could be stuck in a white-out blizzard where no-one can get to you for a while. It is just common sense here to carry blankets and food/water and a way to signal in your car.
Lots of folks here carry enough tools and parts to just about rebuild a car if they have to, as well as axes, chains, tarps, shovels, just about anything you can think of to stay alive if they have to.

Here we don't prep or survive or become self sufficent because it is "trendy" or "popular", it is a way of life. You do it or you can die.

Probably the only other state I know of that would come close is Alaska, and they do many of the same things we do here not because they want to, but because to live in either state, you have to.

[scarlet_ohara]

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

I don't care if people attack me or my position. But I find a dishonest representation of my post beyond the limit. This sort of behavior is detrimental to the very structure of the entire forum.

You viewed posting a sentence from your quote as dishonest representation? Seriously?

Here's the entire quote:

Because it's discourteous. This is the survival subforum. We don't attack people on the Fashion or Sports subfora as being grasshoppers. The only reson to attack us here is to show your smug contempt and superiority.

The entire quote doesn't change what I was illustrating which was that some see this as a "survival forum" which has a different connotation than "self-sufficiency" forum which *should* shed a little light on why these confrontations occur. No misrepresentation whatsoever.

These are dishonest representations of me:

Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming

But the people who don't like this subforum seem to
know no limits.

Is someone or something paying them or are they
just compulsively disruptive? Neither reason is
praiseworthy.

However, I don't care. I'm not easily offended.

[scarlet_ohara]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

I don't see how these are at odds with one another, they seem strongly related to me.

I didn't see where anyone stated they aren't related or that there wasn't some degree of crossover. At least I never have and it's unclear to whom you are responding.

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

Although I do agree that the connotations and rigidity of one extreme or the other can be a problem.

Exactly. I was merely pondering possibilites of alleviating some of that; minimizing the clashes, etc.

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

It's also blatantly clear from this and other forums that categorization and sub-categorization does not normally resolve the problem of off-topic posts and introduces cross-posting and other moderation issues, especially with closely interrelated topics (like those that often occur with Rural/Small Town, Green, Frugal and SS&P).

It wasn't suggested as a magical cure-all. I thought just a bit more narrowly-defined subtopics might minimize some of that, and also help to separate the extremes (and/or the perception of extremes) thereby minimizing disagreements in which someone usually gets offended, the ensuing personal attacks and, in addition, the overall misconceptions that many of the would-be naysayers come here with.

I started thinking about it only because of something you stated:

Doing so this lets us all improve and refine our plans and preps as long as we aren't constantly battling judgmental naysayers.

I took this to mean that you view this as a significant problem, "constantly battling" certainly implies it.

I tried, a few times, to point out some of the reasons why the forum could be perceived as being primarily focused on doomsday than on self-sufficienct living. It isn't because of the recent doomsday television shows because some of this was going on here before that. Both you and SCGranny have had to reiterate details of your lifestyles countless times (not to me, I get it, but to others). Why? Perhaps because the intent of this forum isn't more clearly defined. If it has to be repeated and clarified ad nauseum, there has to be a reason for that.

You mentioned something about complaints. My observations should not be taken as complaints but again, I don't know if you were responding to me or another poster.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

This thread makes it obvious that there is some question over the focus and charter of this sub-forum.

We can take this opportunity to discuss our expectations and attempt to improve the community; or the thread will be shut down because it's disruptive and not accomplishing anything productive if we're just bickering amongst ourselves.

So, I'll ask one more time:

1. Which topics do you want to see discussed more often?
2. What topics and information would you find useful/enlightening?
3. Assuming that the structure of the sub-forum will not change, how can we, as members of its community, promote productive discussions on a wider range of pertinent topics?

Focusing on the negative, telling only what you don't want and generalized complaining and hostility is not going to get us to resolution or improvement... we need to discuss what we do want and what would be meaningful to us from the positive perspective.

[PacificFlights]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

So, I'll ask one more time:

1. Which topics do you want to see discussed more often?
2. What topics and information would you find useful/enlightening?
3. Assuming that the structure of the sub-forum will not change, how can we, as members of its community, promote productive discussions on a wider range of pertinent topics?

Focusing on the negative, telling only what you don't want and generalized complaining and hostility is not going to get us to resolution or improvement... we need to discuss what we do want and what would be meaningful to us from the positive perspective.

Unfortunetely, you are fanning the flames of the problem with that statement.

There is NO PROBLEM with the topics being discussed!
Thers is NO PROBLEM with if a topic is useful or enlightening!
There is IS A PROBLEM with the ability to PROMOTE productive duiscussion on many topics. BUT, in order to provide solutions, we have to be able to tell you what the heck the problem is. To accomplish that, the negatioves of this forum have to be exposed so you understand. if your not willing to do that, what good is even asking for advice?

So, at the risk of having my post deleted or the topic closed. I;ll say what many have tried to say before and were ignored or attacked.

If the decusion topic is self-sufficiency and opinions on having a community store house is the discussion, do we really need to have that topic suddenly ran off the road with conspiracy people telling how the idea is stupid because the goverment is going to seize our storehouse under order this or that, or how this govenrment agency will raid us in the dark.

If the topic is about survival issues such as ways to build a fire using natural materials, do we really need the topic to be ran off the road with people telling us how a fire in the open will attract the hoards of unprepared school teachers and accountants who will ravage us for the cloths on our back?

if the topic is water supply and someone mentions they have 3 weeks supplies on hand, do we really need that person to be attacked over and over again because they don't have 10 years of water in jugs stashed in some underground bunker fortified with weapon shooting pods and a air filter that can save you from alien bacteria?

Do we really need for the some folks to cosntantly tell us how what we have will always be inferior to them and that unless we have at least what they have we are worthless folks? That unless we belive that big brother is going to raid us for out supply of toilet paper we are idiots who will fall to the power of the man? Do we really need to have every topic flooded with doomsday and SHTF philosophy?

Go back and really read the post and you will see the same thing, over and over again; post about a subject is hijacked and turned into philosophical discussions over severity of the need and the intensity of the solution.

Self sufficiency and prepardness does not mean we have to subscribe to a Doomsday or SHTF mentality. So if the purpose of the forum is to always look at the worst of everything and nothing short of that will do, Just say so.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Thank you, PacificFlights.

What I'm hearing is that you would like to be able to discuss practical solutions, including alternatives and suggestions, without those discussions being overwhelmed and hijacked with philosophical or judgmental arguments and comments. Is that correct?