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Old 06-05-2012, 10:13 PM
 
29,981 posts, read 42,806,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I wanna be an artist.. but artists usually aren't worth anything until they are dead.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Connecticut is my adopted home.
2,398 posts, read 3,821,005 times
Reputation: 7774
"Permaculture....Independence via the chain of food custody is a harmless action of anarchy at the most basic level, both in terms of action and in terms of meeting human needs."


Amen to the above.

Before this thread I didn't know anything about Agenda 21. I tend to support sustainability as a general principle only because it's evident to me (and it has been for a long time) that we can't continue on the track of population growth, resource depletion and environmental degradation without a major reset with disastrous consequences. My DH and I did not reproduce by choice. We consciously consume, preferring to buy local, artisan, used, antique, second hand, making/growing it ourselves and then taking care of those things, repairing things till they can no longer be repaired, wearing things out, using it up, getting off of the mindless consumption treadmill. So I have supported sustainability as a concept by my life's choices. I have no problem with voluntarily living well below my means to do my part but if the plan is to corral everyone to mega cities to be on the dole and the whim of overlords, they can count me out.

That said, I suspect the grand plan won't work. Too ambitious without the cooperation of the masses, particularly those that are bright, nonconforming, self starting, connected and/or still have independent resources. I have been intellectually preparing for a reset which might not come in my lifetime, (hopefully) but it will come eventually without wide scale intervention or technological miracles. So in a way, I do understand and support the need to do something, it's the methodology that is disturbing to me and IMHO the measures proscribed will only exacerbate the eventual problems. As I see it, if the measures are done in the manner described, when, not if the cities are wiped out by one of any number of lurking problems, the remainder will have a place (wildlands) to start over which might not be a terrible thing as it pertains to species perpetuation (and hopefully the survivors will emerge the wiser) but it will be devastating on an individual and societal level.

Personally I think it will be disease that will cull the herd when it nears the tipping point, it's nature's way and it will select for the strongest among us. Our Darwinian moment will catch up with humanity and it will be a terrible moment in time but I think I prefer to take my chances with mother nature rather than the grand plans of man who IMO usually manages to make a bigger mess of things when it involves large interconnected systems. Very interesting topic.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Connecticut is my adopted home.
2,398 posts, read 3,821,005 times
Reputation: 7774
"I'm proud to say that yeah I've received foodstamps before and a few others like financial aid (no way would I pay out of pocket for useless education), unemployment benefits, reduced lunch, cash assistance, heat/electric checks from government sponsered non-profits, etc. I've used nearly ALL of them and that's the only way I'm ahead right now."

I haven't walked in your shoes and have no way of knowing whether you needed these benefits of our social safety net or not but if you used them to "get ahead" as you said, at the expense of others I can't respect that. Sorry but that's how I was raised and I value honesty, integrity and grit above many things.

I personally had times where I was eating a can of tuna and green beans a day for months at a stretch, feeding a portion to my cat in order to stay afloat, choosing between gas for my car and paying the rent on time, (the latter won out) keeping the eat down (in Alaska) so I've been there on the brink of disaster but I made choices that helped pull myself out of the abyss to a very prosperous life without using anyone, family, friends, or the system. Just hard work, self denial and tenacity.

Sorry I couldn't let this one pass. It may seem judgmental (and maybe it is) but gaming the system for personal gain is stealing (whether legal or not) IMO and makes folks that do so part of the problem.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,729,514 times
Reputation: 14116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK-Cathy View Post
"Permaculture....Independence via the chain of food custody is a harmless action of anarchy at the most basic level, both in terms of action and in terms of meeting human needs."


Amen to the above.

Before this thread I didn't know anything about Agenda 21. I tend to support sustainability as a general principle only because it's evident to me (and it has been for a long time) that we can't continue on the track of population growth, resource depletion and environmental degradation without a major reset with disastrous consequences. My DH and I did not reproduce by choice. We consciously consume, preferring to buy local, artisan, used, antique, second hand, making/growing it ourselves and then taking care of those things, repairing things till they can no longer be repaired, wearing things out, using it up, getting off of the mindless consumption treadmill. So I have supported sustainability as a concept by my life's choices. I have no problem with voluntarily living well below my means to do my part but if the plan is to corral everyone to mega cities to be on the dole and the whim of overlords, they can count me out.

That said, I suspect the grand plan won't work. Too ambitious without the cooperation of the masses, particularly those that are bright, nonconforming, self starting, connected and/or still have independent resources. I have been intellectually preparing for a reset which might not come in my lifetime, (hopefully) but it will come eventually without wide scale intervention or technological miracles. So in a way, I do understand and support the need to do something, it's the methodology that is disturbing to me and IMHO the measures proscribed will only exacerbate the eventual problems. As I see it, if the measures are done in the manner described, when, not if the cities are wiped out by one of any number of lurking problems, the remainder will have a place (wildlands) to start over which might not be a terrible thing as it pertains to species perpetuation (and hopefully the survivors will emerge the wiser) but it will be devastating on an individual and societal level.

Personally I think it will be disease that will cull the herd when it nears the tipping point, it's nature's way and it will select for the strongest among us. Our Darwinian moment will catch up with humanity and it will be a terrible moment in time but I think I prefer to take my chances with mother nature rather than the grand plans of man who IMO usually manages to make a bigger mess of things when it involves large interconnected systems. Very interesting topic.
I generally agree and I'm not even against large wilderness areas (I love being able to get away from people, wander the bush, hunt, work on primitive skills, ect and a declared wilderness area is the best place to go for that kind of stuff!)

But that's where the conspiracy theory gets "tinfoil hat-worthy". There is no way in hell that the gubberment can contain the entire population in a handful of urban areas, nor evict tens of million of private property owners without instantly creating an extremely large second revolution.

... instead I suspect people will be "kept out" without being legally kept out by making them too poor to go anywhere.
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,176 posts, read 10,657,709 times
Reputation: 9645
Ah, AK-Cathy, now we enter into my realm of expertise.
"Sustainability" does not mean in the political sense what it means in the realistic, common-sense world.

One of my dearest friends and partners in development and I used to discuss this a lot. He was with Lehman Brothers (remember them?) and he was constantly disagreeing with their and the government's "Agenda 21" concept of "sustainability". It was false, not a true 'sustainability', an egregious misnomer, to take advantage of all of our nice warm fluffy feelings about real sustainability.

We worked very hard on a development together. He wanted riding stables and pastureland to be set up on the outskirts of the property, as well as gardening plots for the residents. We discussed water and fertilizer and accessibility; a circle of self-sustaining productivity that could encourage people to not be so dependent on the shops and the malls and the gyms, to get out into the fresh air and create and work productively. We discussed building an Ag branch of the University there, to develop better and more productive hybrids, even an apiary for pollination of not only the food-producing plants but the flowers and trees. We were shot down by the overseers of the development; they didn't want the hassle and potential lawsuits that come from animal husbandry, people getting hurt while gardening or working with animals, even getting bee-stung. We had planned that the ponds be lined with willow trees, for ever-increasing shade and that glorious drapey outline, that would encourage fish and other plants to be near the waterline - they put in "nice, clean-cut" palm trees that were not indigenous and that died... by the hundreds.

The proponents of Agenda 21 and developers don't want true sustainability; they want sterilization, conformity, pristine containment, and control. For developers to get governmental approval and, yes, even grants and funding for their developments, they had to drink the Agenda Koolaid, and subscribe to, promote, and implement its non-sustainable control procedures and practices. "All made out of ticky-tacky and all look just the same" - whether the plants were indigenous, the housing and storefronts were conducive to each particular area, its land and climate - or not.

Last edited by SCGranny; 06-06-2012 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 06-06-2012, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Connecticut is my adopted home.
2,398 posts, read 3,821,005 times
Reputation: 7774
"...they want sterilization, conformity, pristine containment, and control."

I do understand. Leaving aside the control element, that's what I meant by man's propensity to FUBAR large system planning. Even with the finest and highest of intentions, the track record is dismal at best. The larger and more complex the issues, the worse the long term outlook tends to be.

When I talk about and live sustainability it is the grassroots, low tech, common sense type. I do resent the co-opting of a reasonable term by the power mongers to misuse a necessary concept to meet their ends. There is a darned good novel in this somewhere methinks.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:39 AM
 
Location: SC
9,101 posts, read 16,404,395 times
Reputation: 3619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
How does it benefit those in power to impoverish the consumer? Aren't those in power the wealthiest people who own most of the world's manufacturing? Why do they wish to cut their revenue? Poor people aren't valuable consumers.

It seems just yesterday when so many complained about the rich and elite wanting people to buy unneeded consumer goods.
They are beyond wanting to get rich. They already have more money than love. Now they just want the planet to themselves without the 99% of plebians taking up space. Now they are ready to get rid of the masses via mass eugenics ---just like the Georgia Guidestones say.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:47 AM
 
Location: SC
9,101 posts, read 16,404,395 times
Reputation: 3619
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
Ah, AK-Cathy, now we enter into my realm of expertise.
"Sustainability" does not mean in the political sense what it means in the realistic, common-sense world.

One of my dearest friends and partners in development and I used to discuss this a lot. He was with Lehman Brothers (remember them?) and he was constantly disagreeing with their and the government's "Agenda 21" concept of "sustainability". It was false, not a true 'sustainability', an egregious misnomer, to take advantage of all of our nice warm fluffy feelings about real sustainability.

We worked very hard on a development together. He wanted riding stables and pastureland to be set up on the outskirts of the property, as well as gardening plots for the residents. We discussed water and fertilizer and accessibility; a circle of self-sustaining productivity that could encourage people to not be so dependent on the shops and the malls and the gyms, to get out into the fresh air and create and work productively. We discussed building an Ag branch of the University there, to develop better and more productive hybrids, even an apiary for pollination of not only the food-producing plants but the flowers and trees. We were shot down by the overseers of the development; they didn't want the hassle and potential lawsuits that come from animal husbandry, people getting hurt while gardening or working with animals, even getting bee-stung. We had planned that the ponds be lined with willow trees, for ever-increasing shade and that glorious drapey outline, that would encourage fish and other plants to be near the waterline - they put in "nice, clean-cut" palm trees that were not indigenous and that died... by the hundreds.

The proponents of Agenda 21 and developers don't want true sustainability; they want sterilization, conformity, pristine containment, and control. For developers to get governmental approval and, yes, even grants and funding for their developments, they had to drink the Agenda Koolaid, and subscribe to, promote, and implement its non-sustainable control procedures and practices. "All made out of ticky-tacky and all look just the same" - whether the plants were indigenous, the housing and storefronts were conducive to each particular area, its land and climate - or not.
....And they want it all at the expense of the taxpayer where they know they can more easily get away with charging $20 Million for $2 Million worth of "sustainable development".
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Cody, WY
10,420 posts, read 14,534,665 times
Reputation: 22016
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilybh View Post
They are beyond wanting to get rich. They already have more money than love. Now they just want the planet to themselves without the 99% of plebians taking up space. Now they are ready to get rid of the masses via mass eugenics ---just like the Georgia Guidestones say.
That sounds like a rather nice world.

Who wants the Great Unwashed in the neighborhood?
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:57 AM
 
Location: SC
9,101 posts, read 16,404,395 times
Reputation: 3619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Whats wrong with Sidewalks , Bike Lanes , and Alt Transit....why should people be forced to drive everywhere? People should be given the choice or Driving , Biking , or using a train or bus to get work , not just be forced to drive which puts a strain on your income....between the Gas and General Car costs.... I don't really understand you Agenda 21 people ...your total Panriod...which is sad....I feel bad for you... Its a Non Enforceable law...so I doesn't really affect the US at all , but you Anti-Agenda 21 people act like it is and also add in things that aren't even related to Agenda 21 like CISPA , Attacks on Religion or Public Transit...which this country will need more of since were growing... Theres no Population control except in China which you should be afraid of....forget the US govt...the Rise of the Chinese Govt is something to fear... The World's Population will grow to 9-10.2 Billion by 2050 its 7 Billion now. The Recession slowed growth in most of the World.... As for Cramming people into Cities , that's not happening but the cities are growing at decent rate now....faster then the suburbs mainly due to Generation Y....then there are the Urbanized Suburbs which are growing once again after decades of decline , and they have everything in there that Agenda 21 wants....yet are pretty free and open All American Suburbs. Most Northeastern residents and Midwestern residents live in a Urbanized Suburb...which were built around all Modes of Transportation...
Nothing is wrong with sidewalks etc but do you want to be FORCED to have to pay for it and be overcharged to the max? Also, wouldn't you draw the line when "for the greater good of the collective" you are forced out of your home and land because the U.N. Agenda 21 program in your county wants to convert your land to a wildlife sanctuary? If Alt transportation is so great, let a private company come in WITHOUT getting any cushy tax breaks from the government and start a private light rail system or whatever and charge those that want to use it a user fee or a fare. Leave the down trodden taxpayers alone! Leave their property alone!
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