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With all due respect, anyone who thinks they can forage enough edible wild vegetation in the dead of winter in Interior Alaska... buried under 4-6 feet of snow, when it's -40 or lower, and you only have 2 hours of meager sunlight... to feed themselves (much less anyone else) enough to sustain basic metabolism (much less the caloric requirements of such an endeavor) should not, under any circumstances, move here unless you want to join Chris McCandless and others like him.
You might have winter forage options in your area, but not everyone does. And if Mr. Moose or Mr. Bear doesn't come awalkin' through my yard, I might not even be able to hunt/trap enough small game to survive either. So if my stores get tainted, or get raided (by human or animal), or my cabin & cache burns down and I have no way to resupply... all bets are off. I will not lie down in the snow. I will not go gentle into that good night.
Exactly. It is one thing to responsibly and efficiently prep; to can, to freeze, to dehydrate, to store and stock up, and to be confident of one's ability to survive anything. It is a fine thing, a good thing, to be moral, to pontificate about what should be, and to insist that all will be well with preparation and planning, and to disparage anyone who even countenances or imagines anything else. I'm sure that the Donner party, when they started out, were all fine and upstanding good Christians, who would be appalled, righteously enraged, even, had anyone told them what they would resort to.
It is another thing entirely to have all of that depleted or snatched away with no immediately available resources. Even when you are aware that s*** happens, sometimes you are not prepared for everything...
Finally remembered the name of the 1971 song that applies:
Survival is the name of the game. Cannibalism is definitely an option.
Losing my humanity while surviving is not part of my plan. Quality of life and the ability to live with the morality my actions in the process are important. A body that survives while the soul, character and mind are lost is just an empty shell worth nothing but future carion for vultures; or God forbid, some people on this forum.
My life on this earth is not so valuable that I need to murder and eat another to merely survive. Should that time come I would hope I have the sanity to take my own life before losing that which makes me human by participating in murderous cannibalism. Truly, I'm shocked and disappointed by those whom appear to look forward to the opportunity.
Tuning up on my precision rifle marksmanship skills for self-defense.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons
With all due respect, anyone who thinks they can forage enough edible wild vegetation in the dead of winter in Interior Alaska... buried under 4-6 feet of snow, when it's -40 or lower, and you only have 2 hours of meager sunlight... to feed themselves (much less anyone else) enough to sustain basic metabolism (much less the caloric requirements of such an endeavor) should not, under any circumstances, move here unless you want to join Chris McCandless and others like him.
You might have winter forage options in your area, but not everyone does. And if Mr. Moose or Mr. Bear doesn't come awalkin' through my yard, I might not even be able to hunt/trap enough small game to survive either. So if my stores get tainted, or get raided (by human or animal), or my cabin & cache burns down and I have no way to resupply... all bets are off. I will not lie down in the snow. I will not go gentle into that good night.
My comment about foraging was to a forum member who appears to live in a gardening zone which does allow for such, not interior Alaska.
I will not go gently into the night nor will I willfully take the life of another innocent human being for the purpose of consuming his/her flesh. IMO, civilized society and predatory cannibalism cannot co-exist, period.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 07-25-2012 at 10:15 AM..
Then if I don't slaughter and eat them, then will they be slaughtering and eating me.
That depends on the state of their mental health.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir
Now you may be ethically opposed to killing for the purpose of survival, but you're not particularly because you've mentioned you agree to killing in self-defense. So you're position is actually inconsistent.
Basic spiritual and religious beliefs aside, I firmly believe in the concept of liberty. This thread has demonstrated to me that many people here do not believe in liberty, or at the very least, they do not understand the principle. Liberty does not mean a free-for-all between a group of foxes in a henhouse.
I have also noted that a few have suggested that decent people are decent only because the boys in blue force that decency. I do not believe this. I believe that there are good and bad people. They would have the same basic tendencies whether or not Mr. Policeman is around. I'm not saying that people cannot change, but their basic moral makeup is not dictated by law. Personally, I'm going to do what I do, regardless of civil law. Fortunately for those around me, murder is not part of my basic moral makeup.
If you see no difference in murder and killing in self defense, then there is nothing to discuss. Had Ted Bundy's first victim shot and killed him as he was attempting to rape and murder her, it would have been no more justified than Bundy's 30+ rapes/killings. Had that second victim of Holmes at the Batman movie blown Holmes' brains out, it would have been no more justified than the 12 murders he committed. Had Joe Blow shot the cannibal crawling through his window before the cannibal sliced, diced, and cooked him in the fireplace, that would have been no more justified than the cannibal slicing, dicing, and cooking him in the fireplace. Sorry, I don't see it that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir
And as I mentioned above, Murder is a legal term, thus in all of the situations we've discussed there is no murder because there is no law. Your objection isn't legality, its moral, which as I pointed out above is inconsistent anyway, you'd kill in self defense, but not for your own survival. Which in effect is the same thing, because you're killing in self defense to maintain your survival. Do you see the dichotomy of your position?
Nope. Sorry. Again, as I said above, I believe in liberty. Your argument if from a relativist, post-structuralist point of view. Simply a way to justify bad behavior. As such, it has no concept of "right" and "wrong." Meanwhile, back in the real world, such an attitude is referred to as sociopathy (...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others...). If I go out and randomly shoot someone because my stomach is growling, I am disregarding their right to life. I am in the wrong. If someone comes up to me waving the barrel of a gun in my face, I have the right to defend myself. I am justified if I neutralize that threat to my own liberty.
True liberty does have rules. It's not a free-for-all. That's anarchy. And anarchy is what this thread has demonstrated to me that many folks on this forum believe in. Which sort of pisses me off, because I hear so much (hollow, as it turns out) banter here about liberty. And how the boogie man government is out to take our liberty away... all the while coming from predators (the potential foxes in the henhouse) who would do worse than that government they disparage. Looks like a case of ulterior motive to me, because the brand of relativism you state above sure ain't conducive to the concept of liberty for all. On the other hand, I truly do believe in liberty for all. I'm not just spouting it off so that I can justify (in my own head) killing you when your back is turned and I feel a little hungry. It turns out that I actually AM trustworthy. After this thread, there are quite a few folks that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.
If nothing else, this thread has opened my eyes. It has caused me to reassess what survivalism, prepping, and self-reliance are, what they mean, what they stand for, how they relate to one another, and how they relate to the concept of liberty, the principles of the founding of this nation, and virtue/decency in general. I seem to be nearly a lone voice on this thread (with a couple of exceptions). That does cause me some concern. Yet, I suspect that those regulars (here on the forum) who have not chimed on this thread have their heads screwed on straight and they knew better than to become involved. At least I hope so.
I wish I could rep lifelonMOgal and Chris a thousand timesas I agree 100% with your stance and I congratulate you on having the courage to take a stand that is contrary to most of " the regulars" who post here.
I am shocked and disappointed that so many of the posters who will be prepared for marauding gangs from the city who will resort to anarchy under a worse case scenario are themselves accepting that as an option.
Some posters state if the govt collapses there...is no law
Do you folks need a law to control your actions ?
Have you no morals ?
Sadly, I see little difference from ghetto thugs looting and rioting and murdering and ( so called) survivalists who believe anything goes if there are no laws or no one to enforce them
One poster mentioned calling it...."self defense"
There is a distinction between ---self defense---and---self perservation
Shooting and eating an innocent human in order to survive certainly is not self defense anymore than ghetto thugs mudering and robbing people for money
I am noticing very little difference between ghetto thugs' justifications and the justifications of most posters on this subject.
one poster said his pets are part of his family and he would consider murdering an innocent human to feed them
Another poster from Alaska said she would consider the economic pros and cons of killing a
ninnocent human verses hunting wild game.( even mentioned the pros and cons of keeping slaves )
The dangers you folks face is there might be a real survivalist living near you and find out your views.
He might consider your views such a threat to him in the future that eliminating you now might be the most practical way of preventing getting murdered later on.
Losing my humanity while surviving is not part of my plan. Quality of life and the ability to live with the morality my actions in the process are important. A body that survives while the soul, character and mind are lost is just an empty shell worth nothing but future carion for vultures; or God forbid, some people on this forum.
My life on this earth is not so valuable that I need to murder and eat another to merely survive. Should that time come I would hope I have the sanity to take my own life before losing that which makes me human by participating in murderous cannibalism. Truly, I'm shocked and disappointed by those whom appear to look forward to the opportunity.
I didn't say I'm looking forward to the opportunity. If I'm hungry, have run out of food, or I am running out, and need supplies, murder will become a necessity to survive in a harsh world where there are no rules.
I didn't say I'm looking forward to the opportunity. If I'm hungry, have run out of food, or I am running out, and need supplies, murder will become a necessity to survive in a harsh world where there are no rules.
Rules and laws do not keep my morality and actions in check. My character does that. If/when the time ever occures that I should face someone with a mindset like you yourself has revealed (as well as others) I am fully prepared both mentally and physically to win the encounter. I have more empathy for a rabid wild animal than I do for predatory humans resorting to murder to feed themselves.
ChisC, thank you for introducing the discussion of liberty to this thread. There is a direct relationship with respect for innocent human life and the ideals of liberty which cannot be separated. Too few people truly understand the meaning of liberty and its relationship to the sanctity of innocent human life.
Murderous cannibalism is an affront to anyone who values those foundations of natural law and inaleinable rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" upon which this nation was founded, IMO.
Survival and preparation includes being able to thrive and rebuild. What kind of society is rebuilt on a foundation where murderous cannibalism is deemed an acceptable option in a WROL (without rule of law) scenario?
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 07-25-2012 at 11:35 AM..
I didn't say I'm looking forward to the opportunity. If I'm hungry, have run out of food, or I am running out, and need supplies, murder will become a necessity to survive in a harsh world where there are no rules.
The same faulty logic ghetto thugs use today to justify their robbing and killing.
Rules and laws do not keep my morality and actions in check. My character does that. If/when the time ever occures that I should face someone like yourself I am fully prepared both mentally and physically to win the encounter. I have more empathy for a rabid wild animal than I do for predatory humans resorting to murder to feed themselves.
ChisC, thank you for introducing the discussion of liberty to this thread. There is a direct relationship with respect for innocent human life and the ideals of liberty which cannot be separated. Too few people truly understand the meaning of liberty and its relationship to the sanctity of innocent human life.
Murderous cannibalism is an affront to anyone who values those foundations of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" upon which this nation was founded, IMO.
I feel the same way you do.
What I think has happened on this thread is mob mentality.
Each poster thinks they must prove to their " posting buddies" what a mean dude they are and wouldn't think twice about resorting to butchering innocent humans.
The same logic is used by thugs ( and wannabe thugs ) in the ghetto wher talking tough is a sign of manhood.
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