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sometimes. if you are inside 21 feet with a knife, and I pull my pistol out I can point shoot and empty a full magazine into a perp before they can get within 5 feet of me. having been trained on it and still practice it as well. alot of people might not be able to do it, but I have been taught how to.
I also have a fair amount of training, both in the Corps and out...
while it IS possible, it is MUCH less likely from a concealment holster, and also much less likely if the attacker gets inside your OODA loop (attacks without a polite warning) etc.
Also... you can get it done PART of the time... to say nothing of DROPPING the attacker before he makes contact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolillo_loco
I'll give you one thing, you sure can come up with some over the top scenarios.
With the post I've quoted, and the one directly above, I was saved from writing a response myself. I felt as though I was under attack when you came along and saved the day. Hence, the distant bugle call could be heard coming over the hill... I can see that it wasn't the cavalry, it was Iron Mike...
Last edited by bolillo_loco; 09-19-2012 at 07:28 PM..
Reason: I am no Rhodes scholar...
I'll give you one thing, you sure can come up with some over the top scenarios.
Is it just me, or can anybody else hear a bugle?
I live on 664 acres. meaning if you trespass on my roperty with intent to harm me or just plain ignore the no trespassing signs, i will use whatever force i feel necessary to make sure you do not hurt my family or myself. long raange would be a barrett in 50bmg, under 800 meters would be a 762x51. so no over the top scenarios.
I also live in Wisconsin, while I do have a CCW license, when i can in Wisconsin i open carry with a break frony holster. makes for great point shooting.
I live on 664 acres. meaning if you trespass on my roperty with intent to harm me or just plain ignore the no trespassing signs, i will use whatever force i feel necessary to make sure you do not hurt my family or myself. long raange would be a barrett in 50bmg, under 800 meters would be a 762x51. so no over the top scenarios.
I also live in Wisconsin, while I do have a CCW license, when i can in Wisconsin i open carry with a break frony holster. makes for great point shooting.
Listen. I am doing my best to not get short with you, but all your scenarios are rather myopic, and all rely on your limited experience in highly controlled situations and a sense of above average ability that creeps from every word you type. You're scenarios always rely on the assumption that you will always detect a threat/perpetrator before they find you, they'll always oblige your controlled situations, and never play the variable, which makes them all ridiculous. I have no doubts that if you were ready, had your weapon drawn, and somebody charged you from 1000yards down to 50 feet, that you'd probably stop them 100% of the time. Unfortunately, that's not how they play out. You cannot possibly protect yourself at all times. Sure walking about in public or home on the ranch on high alert is possible most of the time, but sooner or later you're going to have to eat, sleep, and do some chores. If a stranger passes you by in public and decides to take his rage out on you, you'll probably be powerless to stop him because he's got the two key winning elements in fist, knife, and gunfights. He's got the element of surprise, strikes the first lethal blow, and by the time you've caught up, he's already got you dispatched. In life as we know it without a SHTF scenario, the lion's share of people that are attacked know the perpetrator. Furthermore, a gun isn't always the answer. In fact, I would place a gun dead last behind situational awareness, detection and evasion without looking obvious, blending in, not looking like an easy mark, as well as a whole slew of things that take precedence over a gun. Furthermore, with the average people I've trained to shoot, a gun was pointless for a few. For many, they just seemed to lack situational awareness, so I feel that if they would ever need to defend themselves with a firearm, it would be a matter of luck because being caught unaware completely negates the firearm, and this is true regardless of what type of firearm or caliber it is.
I can usually spot concealed carry. I often like to go up to them and pop their security bubble. I also watch police and armed security in stores or on foot patrol. They're so zoned out, that just about anybody could just walk up behind them, and take their side arm. You are not that special. You cannot read minds. The lion's share of people intent on harming you will have the element of surprise in their favor, which means they'll be up close and personal. The fact that you're on a large parcel of land has no bearing. You're highly visible in your home. Many people can sneak up on that place, and do exactly what you think they can't.
You're not Rambo, but you seem to exude that type of manner with all you've written about thus far. You advocate the .22 rim fire based on your myopic scenarios, yet you have a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle... You've parroted how the .22 can drop cows at will, and you seem to think this same thing will happen if a bear, mountain cat, or a real bad guy that has a lot of heart will also just stand there motionless, and if you miss the brain, they'll simply jump into another position and say, "Would this be better? Hey, I promise I won't do anything underhanded like catch you unaware, charge you from 20 feet, and I will always present the best motionless target possible." I feel I've met your type before, and I heard alarm bells ringing quite a few posts back. I feel that your past experiences and present day knowledge make it impossible for you to accept the fact that there are far too many variables that negate being armed. I'll stick with what I've said before, your scenarios are over the top, and most just aren't plausible. While it's true they are possible, it doesn't make them valid 100% of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching
I am done with this thread.
No comment needed...
Back to the topic:
A gun isn't the end all be all, and a .22 rim fire will be found wanting in most self defense scenarios, which is why I would dissuade anybody new or inexperiencedfrom only arming themselves for protection, home defense, and hunting with not only a hand gun, but also a firearm in caliber .22 rim fire. Get a proper firearm, learn to use it, and become aware of your surrounding. Learn to reload, cast your own, and stock up on those supplies as well as a variety of other calibers because in a post STHF scenario, ammunition will probably become a bartering commodity. Don't buy more than you can reasonably afford. If you're doing this because of "Frightened prepper syndrome," I'd say don't waste your money. If you feed the need to arm yourself, have no experience or knowledge of firearms, and are frightened by what could happen, get a cheap 12 gauge pump action shotgun like the Maverick 88 new or used, two - four boxes of 2 3/4 00 buckshot, and that's about as much as you can do if you're not willing or able to become proficient with the firearm, self-defense, and hunting. Learn basic trapping and running trotlines, and that will feed you more than hunting with any .22 will. Shooting game, in my opinion, during a SHTF scenarios will be a matter of if the situation presents itself take it, but don't go out actively hunting because if that's all you've got to rely upon, the calorie game will get you sooner or later, so no a .22 rim fire rifle or pistol is not a good SHTF option. It's not multipurpose like a real rifle. Reloading opens up a lot of options, which is why I used the 30/06 as an example. It's possible to load the /06 with 77 grain self cast bullets, 1,000 fps, less than 10 grains of Unique, or a full power charge with 250 grain cast bullets, 2,000+ fps, and a plethora of in between. This can also be done, albeit most calibers aren't as versatile as the 30/06, but hand loading and casting one's own greatly increases the versatility of even the lowly 30-30 Winchester.
Last edited by bolillo_loco; 09-20-2012 at 09:07 AM..
Reason: I am obviously no Rhodes scholar.
Listen. I am doing my best to not get short with you, but all your scenarios are rather myopic, and all rely on your limited experience in highly controlled situations and a sense of above average ability that creeps from every word you type. You're scenarios always rely on the assumption that you will always detect a threat/perpetrator before they find you, they'll always oblige your controlled situations, and never play the variable, which makes them all ridiculous. I have no doubts that if you were ready, had your weapon drawn, and somebody charged you from 1000yards down to 50 feet, that you'd probably stop them 100% of the time. Unfortunately, that's not how they play out. You cannot possibly protect yourself at all times. Sure walking about in public or home on the ranch on high alert is possible most of the time, but sooner or later you're going to have to eat, sleep, and do some chores. If a stranger passes you by in public and decides to take his rage out on you, you'll probably be powerless to stop him because he's got the two key winning elements in fist, knife, and gunfights. He's got the element of surprise, strikes the first lethal blow, and by the time you've caught up, he's already got you dispatched. In life as we know it without a SHTF scenario, the lion's share of people that are attacked know the perpetrator. Furthermore, a gun isn't always the answer. In fact, I would place a gun dead last behind situational awareness, detection and evasion without looking obvious, blending in, not looking like an easy mark, as well as a whole slew of things that take precedence over a gun. Furthermore, with the average people I've trained to shoot, a gun was pointless for a few. For many, they just seemed to lack situational awareness, so I feel that if they would ever need to defend themselves with a firearm, it would be a matter of luck because being caught unaware completely negates the firearm, and this is true regardless of what type of firearm or caliber it is.
I can usually spot concealed carry. I often like to go up to them and pop their security bubble. I also watch police and armed security in stores or on foot patrol. They're so zoned out, that just about anybody could just walk up behind them, and take their side arm. You are not that special. You cannot read minds. The lion's share of people intent on harming you will have the element of surprise in their favor, which means they'll be up close and personal. The fact that you're on a large parcel of land has no bearing. You're highly visible in your home. Many people can sneak up on that place, and do exactly what you think they can't.
You're not Rambo, but you seem to exude that type of manner with all you've written about thus far. You advocate the .22 rim fire based on your myopic scenarios, yet you have a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle... You've parroted how the .22 can drop cows at will, and you seem to think this same thing will happen if a bear, mountain cat, or a real bad guy that has a lot of heart will also just stand there motionless, and if you miss the brain, they'll simply jump into another position and say, "Would this be better? Hey, I promise I won't do anything underhanded like catch you unaware, charge you from 20 feet, and I will always present the best motionless target possible." I feel I've met your type before, and I heard alarm bells ringing quite a few posts back. I feel that your past experiences and present day knowledge make it impossible for you to accept the fact that there are far too many variables that negate being armed. I'll stick with what I've said before, your scenarios are over the top, and most just aren't plausible. While it's true they are possible, it doesn't make them valid 100% of the time.
No comment needed...
Back to the topic:
A gun isn't the end all be all, and a .22 rim fire will be found wanting in most self defense scenarios, which is why I would dissuade anybody new or inexperiencedfrom only arming themselves for protection, home defense, and hunting with not only a hand gun, but also a firearm in caliber .22 rim fire. Get a proper firearm, learn to use it, and become aware of your surrounding. Learn to reload, cast your own, and stock up on those supplies as well as a variety of other calibers because in a post STHF scenario, ammunition will probably become a bartering commodity. Don't buy more than you can reasonably afford. If you're doing this because of "Frightened prepper syndrome," I'd say don't waste your money. If you feed the need to arm yourself, have no experience or knowledge of firearms, and are frightened by what could happen, get a cheap 12 gauge pump action shotgun like the Maverick 88 new or used, two - four boxes of 2 3/4 00 buckshot, and that's about as much as you can do if you're not willing or able to become proficient with the firearm, self-defense, and hunting. Learn basic trapping and running trotlines, and that will feed you more than hunting with any .22 will. Shooting game, in my opinion, during a SHTF scenarios will be a matter of if the situation presents itself take it, but don't go out actively hunting because if that's all you've got to rely upon, the calorie game will get you sooner or later, so no a .22 rim fire rifle or pistol is not a good SHTF option. It's not multipurpose like a real rifle. Reloading opens up a lot of options, which is why I used the 30/06 as an example. It's possible to load the /06 with 77 grain self cast bullets, 1,000 fps, less than 10 grains of Unique, or a full power charge with 250 grain cast bullets, 2,000+ fps, and a plethora of in between. This can also be done, albeit most calibers aren't as versatile as the 30/06, but hand loading and casting one's own greatly increases the versatility of even the lowly 30-30 Winchester.
myopic? lets just go ahead and call you the end all of all knowledge in everything to do with firearms, knives and everything else. in fact why not name you another gunkid.
myopic? lets just go ahead and call you the end all of all knowledge in everything to do with firearms, knives and everything else. in fact why not name you another gunkid.
/ignore
I've never claimed to be an expert. I am simply pointing out obvious flaws with your over the top scenarios and challenges. Because you can walk up to a motionless cow, shoot it in the brain, and kill it instantly, you seem to be under the assumption that you'll always be able to do that in ever scenario with a .22 caliber handgun. Moreover, you seem to think that at distances well under 20 feet, that a knife is pointless, and a .22 caliber handgun is better. To me, anybody making suck statements hasn't seen many gun or knife fights. Hence, a lot of what you've written is rather myopic because not everybody just falls down when they're shot with handguns. Then there's the irony of ironies, you champion the .22 rim fire, but pull out the .50 caliber Barrett...
When I state I've been shot in a gun fight, and I've seen dozens of handgun and knife fights, it's not bragging. Anybody living in a city that has a high crime rate will eventually witness knife, gun, and fist fights, and that's exactly how I had my experiences. I even saw a guy repeatedly stab another using the lowly screw driver. The entire fight hinged on the fact that one man thought the other was looking at his woman. I also worked in a dance club for 10 years, and 3,000 people per week paid the cover charge. Hence, I got to witness a lot of violence quite by accident. It wasn't something I looked for. I moved from that city as soon as I could. Reports from firearms was quite frequent. It seemed like a daily event. One of my roommates was shot walking to Kentucky Fried Chicken simply because he's a little slow, and he only had five dollars on him. Allison Hill in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania is one violent area considering just how small it is.
Last edited by bolillo_loco; 09-22-2012 at 03:17 PM..
Reason: I am no Rhodes scholar...
Stockpiling too much ammo isn't good.
Ammo has somewhat of a shelf life, if not used and stock is not rotated, the user can expect the firearm to jam or misfire (not fire properly)
so, having fresh is almost essential for proper operation of the firearm.
22 semi auto is good, and 12 gauge is probably all you'll need.
cities under siege rarely experince small arms fire in a first assault, these are usually softened up with airstrikes or artillary first, if you survive that, you'll be lucky. when you talk about urban combat, you'll need something other than a 22 and a shotgun, because the people trying to overtake will usually always have something to take you out, like a rpg or a tank.
Stirring the pot again, are we? Laughs. That was a good read. I like the .22 Stingers by CCI and keep my Sig Sauer 1911-22 loaded with them. Of course, if I have a break-in I am more likely reaching for my 12 gauge Mossberg or my Springfield .45. Additionally we keep a S&W Model 60 at the ready. I will probably swap out the .357 Spitfires for a .38 Special+P because I'm not sure that my wife feels comfortable shooting the more potent .357 rounds. All this is to say that I still would feel very confident if the only gun in my hand were my .22.
The writer also mentioned a the MP15-22 by Smith and Wesson. I have gone back and forth with that gun. I think it's a great idea but after handling one I didn't care for the light "air-soft" feel to it. Still I may consider picking one up in the near future. Having something that can send a spray of .22 LR in a hurry is an appealing idea. I also like the idea of a rifle with iron sights that is inexpensive to shoot so that I have something to use when I teach my kids how to shoot.
These thoughts all go back to the original question of how much ammo should someone stockpile. Again I think it depends on the individual's prepping strategy. I personally have a wide range of calibers due to a wide range of shooting interests. I prioritize what ammo I stockpile based on what I believe is the most likely scenario that will require the use of a certain size. I picture a couple different scenarios for my location, the specifics of which I've discussed in other threads. This shapes how I plan, prioritize, and stockpile. I also stockpile based on what is available and affordable at the moment. The .22 LR is always affordable, but not always available. This is revealing in my opinion. I order online often, and you cannot get .22 LR value packs from Federal. Just about every online seller is always out of stock. For all the discussion of the suitability of the .22 LR as a self defense, hunting, or survivalists' cartridge, the product seems to be flying off the shelves.
So finally I would conclude there is not a right or wrong answer to the question. Different people prioritize differently (surprising, I know). We often let these threads descent into a sparring contest of "I'm right, you're wrong." but the truth is none of us knows each other's circumstances like they do. Sharing ideas is what makes this forum a good resource and a fun place to visit. Something that has worked for one may not work for another, but it is still a valid idea to share with others.
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