Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's a face cord price, which is only 1/3 of a cord. A cord would cost you $150. A ton of pellets (50 bags) would cost you about $230. The price is about the same either way.
Morning Elkhunter, another day, another BS regulation.
Where I live we get thermal inversions in the valley each winter and mandates like this have been in place for a long time.
Guess what, I still have a wood stove
The local government actually sends people around to look for smoke coming from houses so they can fine you if you don't have the proper government approved stove.
They haven't had the laws embraced by the majority of the population, a lot of the homes here have a wood burining heating stove because the power does and has gone out when the temps fall way south of 0 degrees and a wood stove may save your life. Plus, with heat so expensive, going out and cutting your own wood from the surrounding forest service lands is sometimes the only way folks can afford to heat their homes well.
When I was on the fire department I could always tell when someone had one of the "approved" stoves because of the incidents of chimney fires. Unless you burn those stoves at the pyoper temperatures, you get a lot of creosote and soot buildup in the chimneys because of the filters and restrictors. If you don't burn perfectly cured wood and have everything just right to operate it, you get a chimney fire.
Some folks that burn do the extra work to get the dang things to work right, but some will for instance use green wood or wet wood that hasn't been stored in an approved shelter, so the stove doesn't operate exactly right, and.....well you know the rest of the story.
Banking the stove for the night at a low burn will also cause buildup.
One good thing though, if you use a good double walled chimney that is properly installed, usually the soot will burn off in a blast and leave the rest of the house just fine. I really like those chimneys
Still, the EPA is the new Gestapo when it comes to controlling how people live. That agency does a lot more harm than good and I for one would like to see it abolished.
Oh yeah, as for camp fires, don't you know you are supposed to carry those little butane jobs to make your espresso in the woods now? Lots of areas have restrictions on open burning and campfires.
Another Obama regulation that should be removed by Congress. We need less government.
Another Obama regulation that should be removed by Congress. We need less government.
Sure, let's all go back to burning wood and driving the 1950s fuel efficient and clean-air producing cars. Let's elect the CEO of Exxon for chief of EPA, the CEO of Booz Hamilton to head the Pentagon, the CEO of Monsanto to run USDA, the CEO of Pfizer to run FDA, the CEO of Goldman Sachs to run the Treasury Department. Nothing guarantees that the people will be represented and their future taken care of for the better like some industry experience and the desire to have the rule of the free market.
Where do you live that anyone would sell and deliver a full cord of firewood for only $50?
Better get the details.
Most things that sound too good to be true are NOT true !
Montana.
Federal regulations and court cases from the rabid greens kept us from managing the forests, so they overgrew and we got an infestation of pine beetles that killed millions of trees.
The infestation couldn't be contained to federal ground alone, so the infection spread to private property.
A dead standing tree is a threat and a fire danger, so landowners have been forced to clear-cut their land to try to keep from losing everything in the huge forest fires we get each summer because of the fuel load from the dead timber we can't touch on fed ground.
This creates a surplus of wood, so the price is what the market will support.
The guy who sells for $50 a cord is delivering 8 foot lengths, The guys selling cut blocks are usually around $100/cord, the cut/split/delivered are usually priced around $150/cord. The less labor you do, the more the wood costs.
There are differences in price depending on the type of wood too. Ponderosa pine is the cheapest, Lodge pole the most expensive. Very few sell Douglas Fir or Spruce as most folks don't like to burn it as it isn't as clean or hot and can be difficult to get going.
On a second note to Yuptag, Can't argue with you when you are right
Federal regulations and court cases from the rabid greens kept us from managing the forests, so they overgrew and we got an infestation of pine beetles that killed millions of trees.
The infestation couldn't be contained to federal ground alone, so the infection spread to private property.
A dead standing tree is a threat and a fire danger, so landowners have been forced to clear-cut their land to try to keep from losing everything in the huge forest fires we get each summer because of the fuel load from the dead timber we can't touch on fed ground.
This creates a surplus of wood, so the price is what the market will support.
The guy who sells for $50 a cord is delivering 8 foot lengths, The guys selling cut blocks are usually around $100/cord, the cut/split/delivered are usually priced around $150/cord. The less labor you do, the more the wood costs.
There are differences in price depending on the type of wood too. Ponderosa pine is the cheapest, Lodge pole the most expensive. Very few sell Douglas Fir or Spruce as most folks don't like to burn it as it isn't as clean or hot and can be difficult to get going.
On a second note to Yuptag, Can't argue with you when you are right
Your explanation was very good.
Yes, 8 ft lengths, block, wood, or split wood would all be priced differently.
In the early 50's, I recal helping my dad cut firewood that he was going to sell.
The maple and oak was cut in 4 ft lengths and we then splitted the 4 ft lengths lengthwise with wedges.
It was dried for a year.
It is unheard of today, but many years ago selling " cord wood" meant you delivered 4ft pieces that were split to stove size and stacked crossways 4 ft high
Every 8ft represented a cord.
The buyer then made 2 cuts and ended up with (3) 16 inch pieces. Nice size for a stove.
Not a lot of hardwood in my area, box elder (poor cousin of the maple) is about the only one, but it is knarly and twisted, nearly impossible to split, and not a lot of it anyway, so very few use it except when they are clearing scrub.
Lodgepole pine is a great softwood, grows really tall, really fast, not a lot of limbs, you have a nice clean log that can be 60+ feet long. Easy to cut into 8 foot sections for hauling, and when you buck it into blocks, easy to split with an ax or splitting maul. Standing dead doesn't need to be seasoned, so it can be cut, bucked, split and used same day.
On the other hand, it rots fast and the roots are shallow so when the tree dies, it becomes a fall hazard within a couple of years making it dangerous to be out in the forest.
A lodgepole can grow to house log size, (8 inch log) within 40 years, and they grow in close forests so if you thin as the stand grows, you start out with fence posts and poles, then you get into stud logs, then house logs, then saw timber for dimensional timbers, and firewood at all stages.
We have a small piece of ground, (160 acres) that is about 2/3 covered in Lodgepole pine. My father has been managing that forest for 50 years, and the trees and pasture just keep getting better, at least until the beetles hit.
Now we have a loss of at least half of the timber we have to do something with, and while beetle kill has a distinctive blue color that is sold in yards as "blue" pine, there is only so much market when everybody is in the same boat, so firewood is the next option.
We have a 26 foot trailer 8 feet wide, so stacking the wood 4 feet high, we can haul 6 cords at a time. Problem is weight. Even dry wood can add up after a while and it is rough on the tires, so we usually just stack to 3 feet high and we can handle it easier.
My father and I fell, bunked, cut, loaded and hauled 6 cords last weekend. If you have a horse for skidding, fairly even ground and a lot of timber within a 100 yard radius, it isn't hard to fell and bunk one day, cut to length an load the next and get a significant amount in a short time.
We bunk the lengths at home on raised platforms and cut and split during the winter when the snow is so deep we can't get into the timber.
Wood is the primary heat source for both my father and I, and I use about 6-8 cords a year, my father uses around 9-12, (lots of cold wind in his area).
The forest on that land is much healthier than most because of our constant management, the neighbor just clear cut when the infestation hit so those forests are gone, but because of the nature of pine, the saplings were coming back and were around 6 feet tall within 5 years.
The pasture under the timber is excellent where we have thinned the trees, lots of wild game and non game animals use the property as well as it serves as summer pasture for our cattle. The forest is diversifying now and spruce and fir are starting to replace some of the pine, but it is a good mix for us and the animals at this time.
Go over to the federal lands where the forest can't be managed due to court cases, you have overgrown timber with lots of standing dead and jackstraw downfall, no feed, the animals can't use it, there isn't any feed, the creeks are choked with fallen logs, and the fuel load is so great that the forest service's only choice to prevent catastrophic fires is to set controlled burns, (that usually get out of hand) to reduce loads so that population centers can be protected when the wildfire season starts in July through mid-September costing millions of dollars to fight while choking the skies with smoke and ash.
If we could get the greens to back off and allow us to manage the forests we could have unlimited jobs, wildlife, resources as well as more opportunities for everyone to access and enjoy the national forests.
Yeah, like that is going to happen...
Not a lot of hardwood in my area, box elder (poor cousin of the maple) is about the only one, but it is knarly and twisted, nearly impossible to split, and not a lot of it anyway, so very few use it except when they are clearing scrub.
Lodgepole pine is a great softwood, grows really tall, really fast, not a lot of limbs, you have a nice clean log that can be 60+ feet long. Easy to cut into 8 foot sections for hauling, and when you buck it into blocks, easy to split with an ax or splitting maul. Standing dead doesn't need to be seasoned, so it can be cut, bucked, split and used same day.
On the other hand, it rots fast and the roots are shallow so when the tree dies, it becomes a fall hazard within a couple of years making it dangerous to be out in the forest.
A lodgepole can grow to house log size, (8 inch log) within 40 years, and they grow in close forests so if you thin as the stand grows, you start out with fence posts and poles, then you get into stud logs, then house logs, then saw timber for dimensional timbers, and firewood at all stages.
We have a small piece of ground, (160 acres) that is about 2/3 covered in Lodgepole pine. My father has been managing that forest for 50 years, and the trees and pasture just keep getting better, at least until the beetles hit.
Now we have a loss of at least half of the timber we have to do something with, and while beetle kill has a distinctive blue color that is sold in yards as "blue" pine, there is only so much market when everybody is in the same boat, so firewood is the next option.
We have a 26 foot trailer 8 feet wide, so stacking the wood 4 feet high, we can haul 6 cords at a time. Problem is weight. Even dry wood can add up after a while and it is rough on the tires, so we usually just stack to 3 feet high and we can handle it easier.
My father and I fell, bunked, cut, loaded and hauled 6 cords last weekend. If you have a horse for skidding, fairly even ground and a lot of timber within a 100 yard radius, it isn't hard to fell and bunk one day, cut to length an load the next and get a significant amount in a short time.
We bunk the lengths at home on raised platforms and cut and split during the winter when the snow is so deep we can't get into the timber.
Wood is the primary heat source for both my father and I, and I use about 6-8 cords a year, my father uses around 9-12, (lots of cold wind in his area).
The forest on that land is much healthier than most because of our constant management, the neighbor just clear cut when the infestation hit so those forests are gone, but because of the nature of pine, the saplings were coming back and were around 6 feet tall within 5 years.
The pasture under the timber is excellent where we have thinned the trees, lots of wild game and non game animals use the property as well as it serves as summer pasture for our cattle. The forest is diversifying now and spruce and fir are starting to replace some of the pine, but it is a good mix for us and the animals at this time.
Go over to the federal lands where the forest can't be managed due to court cases, you have overgrown timber with lots of standing dead and jackstraw downfall, no feed, the animals can't use it, there isn't any feed, the creeks are choked with fallen logs, and the fuel load is so great that the forest service's only choice to prevent catastrophic fires is to set controlled burns, (that usually get out of hand) to reduce loads so that population centers can be protected when the wildfire season starts in July through mid-September costing millions of dollars to fight while choking the skies with smoke and ash.
If we could get the greens to back off and allow us to manage the forests we could have unlimited jobs, wildlife, resources as well as more opportunities for everyone to access and enjoy the national forests.
Yeah, like that is going to happen...
I'm in the SF Bay Area California where the unthinkable is happening.
After years of wildfires those opposed have actually said controled grazing and forestry might have a place... this is huge after 40 years of the opposite policy.
They might actually expand grazing because it is effective.
Lots of Bay Area cities still require a permit for each tree taken after weeks of public comment... many owners that were proactive simply wait until the fire department says a tree has to go... why fight city hall?
It did not use to be this way and I am not that old...
Sure, let's all go back to burning wood and driving the 1950s fuel efficient and clean-air producing cars. Let's elect the CEO of Exxon for chief of EPA, the CEO of Booz Hamilton to head the Pentagon, the CEO of Monsanto to run USDA, the CEO of Pfizer to run FDA, the CEO of Goldman Sachs to run the Treasury Department. Nothing guarantees that the people will be represented and their future taken care of for the better like some industry experience and the desire to have the rule of the free market.
So then, if wood burning is so bad, then could you tell me what your air quality was like in 2010?
I'm just wondering because there was up to 1M acres of Alaska burning that year, that was just in AK, I couldn't tell what was happening in Colorado, California, or elsewhere. The US Gov let it burn more or less, and only protected structures, the EPA was silent on it. So naturally occurring fires must not release the same gases that wood stoves do, or there's something a little screwy with the way we decide what's important.
You know the good thing about burning wood, in preference to hydrocarbons? You burn what has grown, and the remarkable thing that happens is the areas you clear have these saplings the following year, the year after that they're a little bigger and more robust, but a few less, and in a little while you'd never even know it was cleared for firewood. The Carbon Dioxide in the wood burned is used by the trees to grow (you may have heard of it, it's called the carbon cycle), and growing trees use more of it than mature trees.
Now if you burn a gallon of hydrocarbons, well that releases 1 gallons worth of carbon into the air. That carbon had been sequestered for millions of years, not up to a century like a tree. Plus it had additional contaminants in higher concentrations than would exist in, well, wood. For instance sulfur, and possibly heavy metals too, that would, in the concentrations in that gallon of hydrocarbons, kill a tree stone dead in next to no time.
So before you go crying about people burning wood, consider, if the entire wood burning population of the US was burning in a standard open pit fire, the amount of contaminants released over the heating season would not have amounted to at the extreme upper end 1/10 the amount of contaminants that the FedGov allowed to be released in AK in 2010, 2011 wasn't so bad, but probably about 1/2 million acres burned, still more than at the extreme upper end of 5 times the contaminant release of the same population burning wood in the same way.
During that same time how much Heating Oil, Propane, Natural Gas, Electricity (from coal/oil/NG fired power plants), and coal itself was burned to keep people warm in the winter, and how much Electricity (from coal/oil/NG fired power plants) was used to keep people cool in the summer? Oh and that was all in addition to all the wood burners, and wildfires too.
So before you go crying about people burning wood, consider, if the entire wood burning population of the US was burning in a standard open pit fire, the amount of contaminants released over the heating season would not have amounted to at the extreme upper end 1/10 the amount of contaminants that the FedGov allowed to be released in AK in 2010, 2011 wasn't so bad, but probably about 1/2 million acres burned, still more than at the extreme upper end of 5 times the contaminant release of the same population burning wood in the same way.
It's nice that you are only addressing the "entire woodburning population". That may not be much. However, I was addressing the case that EVERYONE went to burning wood. This is what regulations are intended to address, not a small group of people. If all of a sudden a lot of people decided to go the wood burning route, it makes perfect sense for them to use high-efficiency, EPA approved wood stoves.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
