Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Very true, but thr whole idea is for it to be FULL. If it's filled with storage food, tools, firearms, clothing, cooking gear, sleeping bags, etc, it will not be "empty". It will weigh a ton, esp something of this size! If it's being used as a cache, its purpose is to hold gear, not to be left empty.
Even full of gear they will float. Full of rice it will float. There are ways to keep it down, and a lot of places it will not float (good to use in those places) but it will amaze people what can float.
I've used PVC pipe with end caps sealed using a solvent. It takes a hacksaw to remove the endcap, but it's impervious to moisture.
No it's not impervious to moisture, but I'm not going to explain it to you. And if you need a hacksaw that's your own problem. I expect crap like that from you though. It shows you really do not know as much as you think you do. Keep giving advice that will kill people. Suckers.....
If you're in a situation where you're having to use your cache, you're probably already on the move. I'd stick with cache sizes where the contents can be grabbed by a person or two and you then can continue your travels if/as necessary. I agree with those that have smaller caches more spread out.
No it's not impervious to moisture, but I'm not going to explain it to you. And if you need a hacksaw that's your own problem. I expect crap like that from you though. It shows you really do not know as much as you think you do. Keep giving advice that will kill people. Suckers.....
You can't explain this because you know nothing about organic chemistry. Stick to your religious squealing; that's something that thrives on ignorance.
As I know from a friend's experience, for which I was present, a PVC vault, as I call them, may or may not be impervious to moisture. We dug up a cache he had made ten years prior, to find an AK rusted to near junk status, the stock rotten, to boot. Unbelievably, the carbine ran flawlessly, but the years soaking in that pipe full of water had done their work. Now, perhaps the glue job was imperfect, or maybe water entered the pipe due to hydraulic pressure, or maybe the integrity of the pipe was compromised by materials inside or out. Either way, the contents were toast. Disconcerting at best, if dug up by a man in serious need...
Furthermore, as a licensed and experienced plumber, I can tell you that no one can, with 100% certainty, create a leak-free solvent weld 100% of the time. That is why we pressure test new construction or repair work before turning the water on or leaving the site. It is the nature of the method, that variances will occur in the spreading of the solvent, as well as the movement of same when pipe and fitting are joined. Sometimes, those variances leave a pinhole leak. Which is all water under pressure needs to get out- or in.
Best way to ensure no leakage in my experience, is to properly place a valve stem in the endcap, and pressurize the loaded vault with nitrogen, after the solvent welds are cured. Pressure can be checked after filling, and then again a few days later. If the pressure holds, place a stainless steel cover on the valve stem, and then coat the entire assembly with spray-on bedliner for added protection. I have seen these caches as good as new years later. Not easy, nor cheap, but sure, and sure is what I want when digging up needed items in a time of severe need. It also helps to site such items in well-drained, sheltered places, even though I have seen such caches survive a swamp environment.
Best way to ensure no leakage in my experience, is to properly place a valve stem in the endcap, and pressurize the loaded vault with nitrogen, after the solvent welds are cured. Pressure can be checked after filling, and then again a few days later. If the pressure holds, place a stainless steel cover on the valve stem, and then coat the entire assembly with spray-on bedliner for added protection. I have seen these caches as good as new years later. Not easy, nor cheap, but sure, and sure is what I want when digging up needed items in a time of severe need. It also helps to site such items in well-drained, sheltered places, even though I have seen such caches survive a swamp environment.
Very interesting information, thank you!
I have long suspected that condensation was as big a culprit as leakage, as temps underground, while more stable than above ground, still fluctuate. For that reason, and as an experiment, I have tried some caches that were only half-buried in the side of a hill. They were thus not fully concealed, but well camouflaged, and not disturbed by anyone or anything. The contents were metals, cloth, wood, leather, and rubber - just typical items of no real value. They were all wrapped separately in sealed plastic.
After 2 years, the leather was moldy, the cloth smelled mildewed but was intact, some of the metal items were rusted, the wood and rubber were fine. I have not yet gotten to the point of trying my luck with firearms. I have become adept, in my buildings (I build a lot of structures by myself, or with helpers) in creating 'false' doors that do not open, and real ones that are hidden in the siding. I have also devised some false walls. I have been experimenting with this sort of "hidden in plain sight" caches...not all caches have to be buried! It may well be cheaper, safer and more successful to cache something in this manner.
In any case it is prudent to remember that animals can smell food - even dried food - from enormous distances, and once detected, they will spare no effort to reach it. Keeping food stores "high and dry" seems more prudent than burial. That is something else I'm experimenting with.
I have long suspected that condensation was as big a culprit as leakage, as temps underground, while more stable than above ground, still fluctuate. For that reason, and as an experiment, I have tried some caches that were only half-buried in the side of a hill. They were thus not fully concealed, but well camouflaged, and not disturbed by anyone or anything. The contents were metals, cloth, wood, leather, and rubber - just typical items of no real value. They were all wrapped separately in sealed plastic.
After 2 years, the leather was moldy, the cloth smelled mildewed but was intact, some of the metal items were rusted, the wood and rubber were fine. I have not yet gotten to the point of trying my luck with firearms. I have become adept, in my buildings (I build a lot of structures by myself, or with helpers) in creating 'false' doors that do not open, and real ones that are hidden in the siding. I have also devised some false walls. I have been experimenting with this sort of "hidden in plain sight" caches...not all caches have to be buried! It may well be cheaper, safer and more successful to cache something in this manner.
In any case it is prudent to remember that animals can smell food - even dried food - from enormous distances, and once detected, they will spare no effort to reach it. Keeping food stores "high and dry" seems more prudent than burial. That is something else I'm experimenting with.
Condensation is handled by the addition of a desiccant. I like rice, dried in an oven to be sure, then placed in a cotton sack in the bottom of the vault, separated from contents by a plastic disc. Rice is hydrophilic, as well as inert, as is cotton. All items in the cache get their own sealed plastic sack, as well, with firearms also getting a coat of CorrosionX, a rust preventive dry film lubricant used in the aircraft industry. The plastic bags are as much to prevent chemical reaction between contents and the vault, as to protect the contents from each other and any intruding substances. Purging the air with nitrogen would be better, but is not something I have figured out how to do, as yet....
Just tossing things into a pipe and gluing ends on it is a recipe for disappointment, and perhaps tragedy, depending on the degree of need when retrieved.
Purging the air with nitrogen would be better, but is not something I have figured out how to do, as yet....
We have been using oxygen absorbers for canning dried goods. Air is 75% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and a few % other elements. If you get rid of the 21% oxygen, you'd have mostly nitrogen left. 5 gallon food buckets require about 2,000 cc of oxygen absorbers, a small amount, and about 75 cents in cost.
O2 absorbers are good for above ground storage in mylar pouches and similar containers, as they do remove oxygen. We use them all the time. But, they do not remove humidity, and they can create a slight vacuum when they remove the O2 from the enclosure. How this happens is beyond me, because I still don't fully understand how they absorb O2. I just know it happens. And I know pulling a vacuum on an underground storage container is a bad idea...
Oxygen absorbers or oxygen scavengers are composed of metallic iron, table salt,and charcoal. They may contain other chemicals as well to remove organic contaminants. Charcoal removes odors. NaCl (table salt) is hygroscopic (that means it actively absorbs water). The salt begins the process by absorbing water and ionizing it, then the metallic iron is able to begin the process of reacting with oxygen to form iron oxides or what the layman calls rust. A partial vacuum would be produced in an airtight container because oxygen is removed from the air and combines with the iron. That results in a lower air pressure. Oxygen scavengers only work when the humidity is 65% or higher. This means that if the environment isn't humid the oxygen won't be absorbed nd that if it is humid the remaining water will remain since the NaCl only absorbs a small amount. That's why oxygen scavengers don't work in preserving the materials in the container.
Coating a gun with grease or oil helps just as it helps a gun not in a special container. Grains become moldy because molds thrive on the damp and close environment. The same holds true for fiber. If the humidity is much below 65% the oxygen scavenger simply doesn't work.
I've never had a problem because I have a very different procedure. First, I make sure that I fill the containers in as dry an environment as possible. It should be warm or, better still, hot. Hot air holds less moisture than cold. Then the various items should be placed into the vessels. Some people use dry ice which releases carbon dioxide which is heavier than air so it displaces the air as it sublimates. I use gaseous nitrogen which is available everywhere. Nitrogen is what people use who wish to keep wine drinkable when they've only drunk part of the bottle as it displaces the oxygen.
The commercial solvents bond the endcap to the pipe; they become one. That's why it's necessary to saw off the end to open it. Of course, Nalgene bottles are simply unscrewed. There will be condensation if the container temperature goes up but not if it goes down or remains constaqnt. This is why people should not bring guns from a cold outside directly into the the house as water forms on both the inside and out. It's why coffee should never be frozen. Liquid water presents many problems.
I urge people to use the method I've described, but I also urge you to test it to satisfy yourselves. Take some clean scrap steel and a small quantity of grain. Place them in the container and seal it. Open it five years later; it willbe undamaged if you followed this procedure.. Older people should fill five containers and open one per year to satisfy themselves.
Be aware of any specific requirements for what you store. For example, roasted coffee beans only stay fresh for a few months, but green coffee has an indefinite storage life. Do keep the beans dry, however.
Last edited by Happy in Wyoming; 08-18-2015 at 09:05 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
