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Your gushing about Strom Thurmond threw me for a loop because he's the foundation of the big switch theory. Without Strom, the theory rests solely on an obscure congressman switching,maybe Jesse Helms, and Nixon opposing forced busing (along with Mr. B, and the majority of black people according to polling at the time). Strom said some psychopathic stuff.
There's no way to know for sure if he sincerely changed. I don't recall him supporting the John C Calhoun statue coming down in downtown Charleston. If he did change, he still wasn't 'woke'. If he wanted it gone, there's no reason to believe it would have stayed up given the rock star treatment he receives to this day.
Setting aside Mr. Hollings segregationist past, why has there been a consistent push in our newspapers to assert we need people like Fritiz Hollings and to present him as a Great Man? The small portion of the column that I could see briefly presents him as being above tribalism but he was a standard Democratic politician. He was known for being rude to people as well.
I've yet to see these newspapers run any commentary about Mr. Hollings that isn't gushing in nature. Where's the journalism?
I can't see any young person agreeing with you Mr. Hollings is an impressive person if they watch the 1960 video of Mr. Hollings and JFK giving a speech in SC. It is available on Youtube. They gushed about John C Calhoun in that speech. I was shocked the progressives at SC educational tv posted that on the internet.
John C has been the no. 1 target of the monument removal and building renaming movement.
It seems like most of the people touting Mr. Hollings are white men in their 60's and older. I have been thinking about organizing a protest against the Hollings statue and building names in Charleston.
You pick some odd topics to judge someone's general positions or character. Fritz was dead before the Calhoun statue came down so there would be no record for or against. The city was only able to take it down through a loophole so Fritz likely did not think it even had a say. Fritz was also supporting politicians he knew would bring an end to segregation so don't be so quick to assume he was pro-segregationist. He certainly did not switch or filibuster the senate to maintain that status quo as Thurmond did. And FWIW- John C Calhoun was a great statesman of his time and worthy of study. It simply needs to be tempered with acknowledging him as a slave owner.
And Calhoun is not the biggest target of renaming by a wide mile...
Lol Nope! Wrong, wrong. What a dense 1st paragraph. Nothing sticks but if you feel better...
You have trouble sticking to a point and topic, which is why every thread devolves into a mishmash of loosely connected babble.
I would add to this topic but I have little knowledge on Fritz Hollings. I started to read this thread with interest until you started talking about the political leanings of welders, AOC and whatever other drivel you started farting about.
If I were to add anything to this, Fritz reminds me a bit like a less racially motivated George Wallace. Of course George Wallace changed his "ways" and I think it's worth noting. Of course people that change their views should be accepted; afterall we're not born racist. It's a mindset. If Hollings mindset changed his policy as a politician, this is even more admirable.
Most of your recent posts on this forum have been to insult me. I'm talking about the topic, Fritz Hollings. You don't like what I'm saying about Fritz Hollings. I made one comment about AOC in the context of trade schools and the kind of people who attend them.
The person who babbles on about Shakespeare and autism and what he tells his students is accusing me of babbling.
You aren't responding to my main point that we don't need a former segregationist in office. I've provided at least two reasons for that. I don't see what the payoff is for people to argue we do need a former segregationist in office. What motivates the nostalgia for this guy. The community colleges aren't going anywhere regardless of who we elect.
Last edited by Vaccinated Masker; 03-03-2022 at 10:33 AM..
You pick some odd topics to judge someone's general positions or character. Fritz was dead before the Calhoun statue came down so there would be no record for or against. The city was only able to take it down through a loophole so Fritz likely did not think it even had a say. Fritz was also supporting politicians he knew would bring an end to segregation so don't be so quick to assume he was pro-segregationist. He certainly did not switch or filibuster the senate to maintain that status quo as Thurmond did. And FWIW- John C Calhoun was a great statesman of his time and worthy of study. It simply needs to be tempered with acknowledging him as a slave owner.
And Calhoun is not the biggest target of renaming by a wide mile...
Hollings had JFK gush about John Calhoun in 1960 when JFK gave a speech in SC. Hollings introduced him. That was a 'Southern strategy'.
Hollings had plenty of opportunity to advocate the John C Calhoun statue being taken down. You are saying that he needed to wait for other people to push for it first. The reason that I'm point this is out is self described progressives typically believe taking down monuments is part of being a progressive. The monument issue ramped up before he passed away.
It has been asserted the only reason that people in SC did not riot or try to block integration is because Hollings said to accept the court's decision. If that's true, Hollings would be able to convince people we shouldn't have a statue of John C Calhoun in our public square as well. I believe there were no riots in SC because popular support had gone down for segregation which is why the Democrats gave it up in 1964. It seems like if people were inclined to riot, they would view Hollings as a traitor and ignore him.
I may be mistaken but I don't think Fritz Hollings was in Congress when they voted on the civil rights act. He was a segregationist.
Last edited by Vaccinated Masker; 03-03-2022 at 10:46 AM..
It was a politically motivated change in position no doubt, but he essentially told SC to "stand down" and that's what happened.
Slavery couldn't be struck down via a court decision because it was protected by the Constitution and thus required a constitutional amendment to be completely abolished as an institution throughout the entire country. Although Lincoln voiced his disagreement with slavery, he didn't actually move to dismantle slavery until he issued the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862 which was a wartime tactic to weaken the Confederacy and give the Union a winning advantage.
This is true; he didn't want SC to look like AL and AR and desired to avoid the bad press such resistance would generate.
I never claimed Hollings voiced opposition to segregation prior to the court injunction that paved the way for Harvey Gantt to attend Clemson as its first Black student.
I didn't say anything about the Calhoun statue last week. And how do you know Hollings was a "big fan" of Calhoun?
I'm simply presenting historical facts and said nothing about Hollings being "special" for doing what he did, but his decision was certainly consequential for SC economically.
Democrats have presented Hollings as heroic for accepting the court's decision. This is part of the basis for giving him a statue. I don't consider following the law an act of heroism. I was responding to CD's claim that Hollings was special. I'll give Hollings credit for saying it but the main premise of the topic is that we need a Hollings in government today. I think we can do better than an ex segregationist. If I ran against Hollings, I would bring up his segregation past given his party says photo ID to vote is 'Jim Crow on steroids'. I believe he would make the same incredible claim which undermines the argument that he was above tribalism.
It is a big assumption to assert that people would have rioted or tried to block integration if Hollings had not said anything. If Hollings had that kind of clout with people in SC, he would have run again in 2004. He said that he couldn't get elected again at the time.
The big switch theory is based on the premise that racist Democrats were mad at their politicians for going along with civil rights act and bolted to the GOP (which had pushed civil rights since the Civil War). To be consistent with this theory, it doesn't make sense to also claim these racists chose to accept the loss because Hollings told them to. At that point, they should only be listening to the GOP. But you probably can't find any Republican telling them not to accept it.
Last edited by Vaccinated Masker; 03-03-2022 at 11:08 AM..
Whoever believes it’s wrong or hypocritical for this Citadel group to honor Fritz Hollings because of his politics during segregation could always work through the channels to see how far they get with a movement that includes Black leaders in South Carolina to publicly criticize the idea.
Were any black residents of SC other than politicians like Clyburn consulted about the statue honoring a former segregationist?
Your premise is that black people have a singular opinion.
I believe most black conservatives, independents, apolitical would likely agree with my take.
Robert E Lee told his supporters the cause was lost after his defeat in the Civil War. That is the same thing as what Hollings did. The Lee statues were taken down and in many cases destroyed despite being beautiful works of art.
If Hollings deserves a statue and accolades, so does Robert E Lee
Last edited by Vaccinated Masker; 03-03-2022 at 02:34 PM..
If any Black leaders or communities feel there’s a problem with this Citadel group: …5, 4, 3, 2, 1 - maybe not crickets for long. Who knows? Maybe someone could bring it to their attention to see what they think.
Recently you claimed that nobody in SC wants to rename the Storm Thurmond fitness center at the U of SC. Any informed person living in this state knows that is not true.
You also claimed black people 'loved' Hollings and Thurmond.
I don't think anybody cares what the university does. What happens at a university is a tree falling deep in the forest situation. I was responding to the newspaper columnist and your comments puffing up Hollings. I'm sharing my thoughts about it.
I don't have a problem with people with your views hyping up a former segregationist. I enjoy pointing it out. You and the newspaper columnist wish we could have a former segregationist in office rather than people who never were segregationists. You were also posting this during Black History Month.
Last edited by Vaccinated Masker; 03-03-2022 at 05:14 PM..
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