Land values Black Hills area (rental car, for sale, real estate market)

[spanishdancer]

I am pondering a move to the Black Hills area of SD and am somewhat puzzled by the real estate market. I've never been to SD at all, but have pinpointed the BH area due to the more arid climate (versus eastern SD) as well as the hilly topography. We're looking to purchase at least 100 acres with both hills/woods and some meadow/peasture area. I've looked at quite a few real estate sites and find that there are very, very few of these kinds of properties even listed, and the ones which are seem to my eye to be quite expensive -starting around $600,000 for such acreage.

This is in stark contrast to quite a bit of the country, and I'm wondering what I'm missing here. Can anyone shed some light on this? Is it because most of the area is government-owned or is there some other factor or factors that I'm not seeing? Any ideas on this? Thank you in advance, Amy

[kbat]

It depends on where you're looking. If you want hills and trees with basic amenities like roads and utilities, you'll pay a premium for them. You could get 100 acres in the flatlands (but with a nice view of the hills) for considerably less. More trees = more money. Why? Part of it is indeed scarcity. The government does own a lot of land in the hills. Private landowners can charge a premium because nicely treed acreage is in hot demand. Everyone wants to live in the hills. Relatively few want to live on the prairie.

[spanishdancer]

Kbat, thanks for the reply. I suppose, after really looking at a map of SD since reading your response, that the BH area is quite small compared to the prairie. Amazingly, my husband and I are apparently not the only ones who like hills and trees! If you look at real estate in some other areas, though, such as W. Virginia and Kentucky and parts of Tennessee, it just seems so expensive. Perhaps we'll re-look at some of those areas. Or play the lottery!
Thanks again, Amy

[marmac]

Some parts of rural TN has prices so high it is ridiculous !

A poster started a thread about buying 14 acres with just an abandoned ( unliveable by most people's standards) old farm house in poor shape.

She paid way over $100,000 for that parcel she called " prime farmland" despite it was grown up in grass and trees.

Yup, she thought it was a bargain.

What were you saying about cheap land in TN ?

[eric#1]

Your searching for what seems to be a typical "dream" property in our area. You are correct on the Forest service thing as well, it is approx. 85% of the hills so it puts the remaining 15% of private lands at a higher premium. Also smaller parcels are tough to develop and many parcels have so much rugged terrain that adds to the challenges. Parcels adjoining forest service go for more, and if there are meadow areas with gently rolling hills, creeks they are easier developed so pricing is reflective there as well. The price per acre will be hugely reflective also of beauty, access, privacy, and proximity to recreation. These properties are usually parcels that were owned by mining outfits and later sold, or they are old homesteads that were established in ideal locations for small somewhat sustainable living back a hundred yrs. or so. When adding all the ammenities in the Black Hills it also est. higher value than surrounding areas. Abundant game with deer, elk, turkey, trout, hiking/biking trails, beautiful lakes, snowmobiling, skiing, 4 wheeling, horseback riding, low bug count, few snakes, nearly never a tornado, amazing scenery, great monuments, museums art festivals of all sorts, concerts, car shows/rallies and countless other events even in the winter, national parks - and all this in a fairly quaint rural area!

Also keep in mind just 10 acres in the hills against forest service ground can offer more privacy than a 100 acres on the prairie. Anyway just thought I would add to the list of things that have property values staying high.

[spanishdancer]

Thank you everyone for the responses. This is a very difficult prospect -trying to understand and purchase real estate in an area where we've never lived before. However, Eric, your concept of perhaps needing less acreage in the hills is something we'll definitely take into consideration. It does seem that prime acreage is expensive everywhere, no matter the state or region. That Kentucky, W. Virginia and Tennessee land I've seen on the internet is priced inexpensively for a reason, I'm sure. Probably very little access/ammenities, etc., as well as that humidity! Yikes. (Conversely, I suppose that the expensive TN land mentioned above is prime in some ways. It stands to reason!)

Well, I will continue my hunt and perhaps convince hubby to take a trip to the beautiful Black Hills to see about a little less acreage in exchange for some seriously beautiful country! And lower taxes, although I think I've read that the low taxes only applies to income,state and sales -not to property. Alas, no perfection on earth!

Thanks again, everyone!

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by spanishdancer

T... -trying to understand and purchase real estate in an area where we've never lived before. ... Kentucky, W. Virginia and Tennessee land I've seen on the internet is priced inexpensively for a reason, I'm sure. ... humidity! ..convince hubby to take a trip to the beautiful Black Hills to see about a little less acreage in exchange for some seriously beautiful country! And lower taxes, although I think I've read that the low taxes only applies to income,state and sales -not to property

I just flew to BH region to look over props and learned bunches by being there (tho I have been several times... including every sat night for 7 yrs trucking my way through college while living in Colorado & Wy). It was quite cheap to fly to RC, & I have a GREAT place to stay !! super cheap, but rental cars (no $12 priceline). I had to pay $33, but got a 'brand new' subie, that was really nice to use as a 'ralley' car on all the back muddy / dirt roads. I found the realtors to be MUCH worse than usual, (they must not be hungry yet...), I trust I just found some bad eggs. I was only looking at income props, but spent quite some time with a few friends looking at 70 - 100+ acre parcels they liked. I have traded ~ 20 props in a few states and used realtors 2x, they can be a hassle and really muff up the deals.

The BH is expensive due to being desirable, (nice area, but limited land, one of very few conservative states left, strong military retiree presence). 100 Acres is a pretty good sized chunk when NFS owns the majority of lands. Unfortunately, CA let it's Real Estate equity flee in the 1970's - 1990's and it ruined land values in the whole west. CO, WY, ID, and Montana are messed up too where the land is desirable. (Forced many farmers / ranchers off their land due to increased taxes, including my grandparents, parents and myself 2x) It is really a pain to spend many yrs building a farm / ranch, (soils, trees, fences, barns, wells, homes...) only to have the taxes go through the roof. mine currently went from $800 / yr to $12,000 / yr in 13 yrs (WA state, no income tax).

good thread for 'homesteading' in TN (search for younglisa7)
//www.city-data.com/forum/tenne...tennessee.html

What is your criteria? Besides woods and hills?. If you are planning on doing animals, you best pay extra close attn to County Extension agents and recommended acre / head. SD and WY is very different than NY. Also water availability is a deal killer in many areas. Some areas the septic is the deal killer. Be careful, diligent, and wise. (and don't listen to seller / real estate agent)

Give us some more clues why you want BH, but if cheap and big is in the formula, I would expand your horizons. I found the rural props in SD BH's to be borderline too much. Certainly for retirement (w/o pension) and for ability to pay property taxes in perpetuity with little income. SD, TX, WA, NH loses their appeal once you have no income and you are just buying stuff and paying sales and property tax. Parts of ID, WA, OR, and MT would be much more affordable for land, as they have more treed parcels.

There are many NICE dude ranches FS in ID / MT.

Otherwise, ND does have a few nice areas and is pretty cheap for land (check around T Roosevelt NP). AK might be another option. It is really nice in many areas, and long summer days!

[spanishdancer]

Thanks for the info everyone. Here is a little more about why we are looking into the BH's of SD:

Firstly, we're looking for a state that is as "hands-off" as possible, especially in the areas of gun ownership, property rights and taxes. A place where people aren't so conditioned to bow to whatever the government foists upon them; where it would be unheard of for people to stand in line 45 minutes for an ice cream cone, or to stand in line for 45 minutes to be insulted by the dry cleaner, the grocery clerk, etc. A place where it would be unheard of for people at stand in line for 45 minutes for anything. A place where we can be a bit further from the reach of Big Brother and his partner, Chief Nanny and find, perhaps, a few others who don't care for them either. A place where people aren't quite so willing and eager to do whatever they're told to do, and to wait in line to do it.

Secondly, we enjoy being outdoors quite a bit, especially gardening and just enjoying nature. We find it increasingly difficult to tolerate the humid summers of the midwest-type, although we love the midwest and south very much. It seems to me that the BH's offer a little more arid climate, at least compared to what we're used to.

Thirdly, we envision living a little away from neighbors, and would love to at least have the option of living somewhat "off the grid". When I say we'd like to live a little away from our neighbors, let me explain something. We currently have an enormous ham radio tower a few feet from our house (the NY government here doesn't allow us to do much on our property -we have to get a permit from the STATE to burn a few pieces of wood- but, oddly, it allows a ginormous steel tower on our neighbors' property, right outside our bedroom window.) We live a few miles from one of the most beautiful regions in the country -the snow capital of the U.S. east of the Rockies. It's called the "Tug Hill" region and it truly is gorgeous. However, one would need at least 100 acres to be free from the constant, screaming noise of snowmobiles 24/7 in the winter and motorcycles in the summer. Our idea of enjoying the Tug Hills is to walk, ski, etc., having the silence of the snow blanketed hills interrupted only by the occasional bird call or hooves of deer. Not possible, though, because there are virtually no large pieces of land for sale any more.

Certainly, we are not married to the BH's area, so any other thoughts after my post would be most welcome!

BTW -Sorry for the long post, but I wrote one earlier, which I inadvertently erased, and am trying, not very well, to conjure it back up. Thanks again, everyone, for the help here.
Also, I do realize that living somewhere where job opportunties don't abound offers its own challenges, such as that mentioned above -what if taxes go through the roof like they have in parts of MT and elsewhere, and we would need to prolong our working days or come out of retirement to augment our living expenses...... only to find there are no opportunities for jobs?! However, our other priorities are, well, priorities right now.

[spanishdancer]

I just re-read my post and realized that my second draft (inadvertently erased the first one before I pushed send) wasn't as good as the first. My first post was a little more to the point and less biting. Sorry if my frustration with NY was a little unpleasant.

Stealthrabbit, I have a couple of questions re: your post. How does one predict which areas will rapidly increase tax assessments? Or are you just giving me the names of areas which already have? (By the way, I'm from Seattle. Unfortunately, I didn't buy any property before I moved away, so suffice it to say, I'll never own property there in the future!)

Also, you mention that ID, WA, MT and OR would be more affordable as they have parcels with more trees. Did you mean "and" more trees? I'm not exactly sure I have your meaning here.

You asked what we'd be doing with the land. Our main concern is that the parcel have at least a few acreas of meadow/pasture, as we would like the option to have a large garden and perhaps some animals, although not at all a big operation. Ideally, we'd just have a family garden, but should other economic realities set in, would like the option to graze some beef cattle or something. So yes, a good-sized chunk of land is desirable, and not too expensive, but of course want a view, trees, pasture/meadow. As I write this I realize that it sounds completely unrealistic. Anyway, any further info. you think will help me I would sure appreciate. I'm off now to look up the areas you mentioned on the internet.

Thanks, Amy

[spanishdancer]

And another question..... What about Wyoming?