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I have to agree with you about "small town values" though. I think those teenagers from Belle Fourche learn WAY TOO MUCH about life from those farm animals.
Traffic here's a joke. If you're complaining about ANY type of traffic in South Dakota you're spoiled. It's Sunday driving 24/7 here.
Danny, I'm not sure what that means... Not sure I want to know :S... Danny, I think you went to a catholic school, and the OP went to Roosevelt in SF. You can't make general assumptions like that. You wouldn't know, because you didn't go to a smaller school...
Like I said, drugs/crimes were unheard of when I was in high school at my school... I graduated in 2004... We had modern resources... and our books were up to date. The OP made such a ridiculous argument when it comes to smaller schools. I'll defend anything that comes flying my way!
I've really appreciated reading this thread, the funny thing is that I could see myself writing the exact sentiments of both IceNomad or R_cowgirl in relation to growing up in SD depending on what day it is or mood I'm in.
There are a lot of things that are great about SD, but with the good there is always some ugly (note of warning: today's probably more of an IceNomad day for me). All of my family's roots are in SD going back at least a couple generations, and I spent the first 19 years of my life there and came back for a few brief stints in my early twenties. However, all of my immediate family members and the vast majority of my close friends have all departed the state, for a wide variety of reasons. One ugly, as MJ alluded to - is the lack of value given to education in SD (Jammie I have to disagree with you on this one!). My parents were both teachers in SD for over 20+ years but after so many years of feeling taken advantage of by the Sioux Falls School District, they decided to move to greener pastures (and trust me, things have been a lot greener for them) which was a very risky move as they were getting somewhat close to retirement (their argument - they were never going to be able to retire if they stayed in state). There are many people just like my parents - very good teachers that dedicated their lives to educating the young people of SD but just couldn't take the politics, administrations, and lack of respect/ appreciation anymore and decided to hop state lines. You can get a great education in SD, but it has nothing to do with how education systems are run and everything to do with people like my parents.
IceNomad is correct in that the state bleeds its young people out at an alarming rate, and, although as R_cowgirl pointed out this is common especially in rural areas - I think it is likely much more common for kids that grew up in SD. This is evidentiary in various SD initiatives you see all over the place - of these include the mass marketing campaigns that have happened in recent years where mailers are sent to professionals in other states (if you haven't lived outside of SD you're probably not familiar with this, but I have seen it or know people who have throughout Minnesota and in places as far out as New Jersey) that try and get them to move to SD. "Dakota Roots" is also an example of this, and speaking of Dakota Roots, I think it's representative of another SD "ugly" - closed-mindedness and lack of acceptance of new/ different cultures. To use the website as an example, the stated purpose of it is to "grow the South Dakota workforce by encouraging those with ties to the state to return - to live, grow, and build." I direct workforce development initiatives in Minneapolis and I found the premise of this intiative to be completely and totally absurd. To me it read "rather than look at recruiting diversity to our state in order to fill position openings both skilled and unskilled, we would rather just encourage people with 'ties' to the state to come back!" And what demographic of people are most likely to have ties to the state? That's right everyone - white people (feel free to check out the website and see if there's any diversity represented in any pictures). I am very aware that I am going to take a lot of flack from folks for verbalizing the above who will say that I'm making a big stretch with this, but that's exactly how I interpreted the site the first time I stumpled upon it. Could it be that SD workforce development leaders/ the Governor think that the only people that would likely want to come to the state are those that grew up or have ties to it? Maybe, but even if that is the case, that's a pretty closed, narrow-minded and self-defeating view that greatly lacks in any type of creativity.
And yes, the wages are low, and to add to that, IMO there is a disproportionate amount of poor people getting disproportionately taxed on things like basic needs and/or video lottery.
But, I otherwise found it a great place to grow up - my friends, neighbors, relatives, and classmates were some of the greatest people on the planet - going to SF Whittier and Washington I was exposed to more diversity than most SDans, and I wouldn't change for anything the time I spent "exploring" the plains on fishing and/or road trips with my brother and dad when I was young. I still ocassionally feel the pull of wanting to go back someday, and who knows - maybe I could help start a nonprofit that implements initiatives on behalf of everyone .
Last edited by Camden Northsider; 01-30-2009 at 08:02 PM..
Sorry Danny, I didn't mean to get so defensive there... Sometimes I get worked up . We're cool, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camden Northsider
I've really appreciated reading this thread, the funny thing is that I could see myself writing the exact sentiments of both IceNomad or R_cowgirl in relation to growing up in SD depending on what day it is or mood I'm in.
There are a lot of things that are great about SD, but with the good there is always some ugly (note of warning: today's probably more of an IceNomad day for me). All of my family's roots are in SD going back at least a couple generations, and I spent the first 19 years of my life there and came back for a few brief stints in my early twenties. However, all of my immediate family members and the vast majority of my close friends have all departed the state, for a wide variety of reasons. One ugly, as MJ alluded to - is the lack of value given to education in SD (Jammie I have to disagree with you on this one!). My parents were both teachers in SD for over 20+ years but after so many years of feeling taken advantage of by the Sioux Falls School District, they decided to move to greener pastures (and trust me, things have been a lot greener for them) which was a very risky move as they were getting somewhat close to retirement (their argument - they were never going to be able to retire if they stayed in state). There are many people just like my parents - very good teachers that dedicated their lives to educating the young people of SD but just couldn't take the politics, administrations, and lack of respect/ appreciation anymore and decided to hop state lines. You can get a great education in SD, but it has nothing to do with how education systems are run and everything to do with people like my parents.
IceNomad is correct in that the state bleeds its young people out at an alarming rate, and, although as R_cowgirl pointed out this is common especially in rural areas - I think it is likely much more common for kids that grew up in SD. This is evidentiary in various SD initiatives you see all over the place - of these include the mass marketing campaigns that have happened in recent years where mailers are sent to professionals in other states (if you haven't lived outside of SD you're probably not familiar with this, but I have seen it or know people who have throughout Minnesota and in places as far out as New Jersey) that try and get them to move to SD. "Dakota Roots" is also an example of this, and speaking of Dakota Roots, I think it's representative of another SD "ugly" - closed-mindedness and lack of acceptance of new/ different cultures. To use the website as an example, the stated purpose of it is to "grow the South Dakota workforce by encouraging those with ties to the state to return - to live, grow, and build." I direct workforce development initiatives in Minneapolis and I found the premise of this intiative to be completely and totally absurd. To me it read "rather than look at recruiting diversity to our state in order to fill position openings both skilled and unskilled, we would rather just encourage people with 'ties' to the state to come back!" And what demographic of people are most likely to have ties to the state? That's right everyone - white people (feel free to check out the website and see if there's any diversity represented in any pictures). I am very aware that I am going to take a lot of flack from folks for verbalizing the above who will say that I'm making a big stretch with this, but that's exactly how I interpreted the site the first time I stumpled upon it. Could it be that SD workforce development leaders/ the Governor think that the only people that would likely want to come to the state are those that grew up or have ties to it? Maybe, but even if that is the case, that's a pretty closed, narrow-minded and self-defeating view that greatly lacks in any type of creativity.
And yes, the wages are low, and to add to that, IMO there is a disproportionate amount of poor people getting disproportionately taxed on things like basic needs and/or video lottery.
But, I otherwise found it a great place to grow up - my friends, neighbors, relatives, and classmates were some of the greatest people on the planet - going to SF Whittier and Washington I was exposed to more diversity than most SDans, and I wouldn't change for anything the time I spent "exploring" the plains on fishing and/or road trips with my brother and dad when I was young. I still ocassionally feel the pull of wanting to go back someday, and who knows - maybe I could help start a nonprofit that implements initiatives on behalf of everyone .
I think this is a good thread too... We give South Dakota thumbs up on everything, but there's always the negatives...and we often forget to mention them!
It's definitely not paradise here and it is good to bring out the negatives.
Camden, it might be a good idea for you to contact Dakota Roots with your concerns. Their name alone tells us that they would be targeting whites because that's the race that would've left. Maybe they can expand or get together with another group and target more people???? It probably never occured to them that they were omitting other races since their original goal seems to be bringing back natives South Dakotans.
I'm glad your parents made the right choice in their move. But I won't be getting the violin out for educators.(but I'm sure you know that) I respect them and admire the work they do, but we've discussed all the perks before. They are respected here and many places show that. The Rec Center offers a 20 or 25% discount to teachers. Tanning salons offer a 20% discount to show them their appreciation. Just like healthcare professionals, their basic screenings and flu shots are free. That's rare and most professions do not offer those things.
Just saw a new flyer~a healthcare company from Sx. Falls travels the area and offers screenings. The cost in a clinic would be 350 to 700 per screening. The cost is 40 per screening and there are four of them. Total cost is 160, but if you're a teacher, your cost is 90.
The SDRS has done a wonderful job in securing the retirement funds for it's participants so teachers are one group that has done well in this downslide.
Honestly, the educators I know feel more frustration with administration stifling them and dealing with "no child left behind" then in their wages. Many of them realize that they do get perks and that people do appreciate them. Christmastime always helps them realize how much they're adored by their students and parents and the community in general.
There is a new article out in the local papers. We didn't do well, but it's not what you may think. We don't get rid of our bad teachers. And the reason isn't lack of people willing to teach. Each time there's an opening in the district, they end up with more then 100 applications for one position. That tells me that it isn't that undesireable of a job. And yea, I probably spelled that word wrong so can I blame a teacher? Just kidding and I didn't mean to turn this into another "teacher vs. taxpayer" thread. I like being a free thinker and learning facts rather then just going along with all the hype.
Camden Northsider: The state is more diverse than even I knew when i lived there. Just did a presentation in Pierre, and as such, did a ton of research on SD. This is paraphrased from South Dakota: Definition from Answers.com
The population that gathered in South Dakota from 1860-1920 was as varied as the terrain. Thirteen of fourteen ancestral tribes of Sioux formed nine modern reservation societies that gained recognition by the U.S. Government as "domestic dependent nations." Due to the Sioux's gradual relinquishment of land over more than half a century, South Dakota's first generation of immigrants included representations from most European nations. Immigration records reveal that they included—in order of diminishing numbers—Norwegians, Germans (including Polish), Russians (including Germans from Russia and Finns), Swedes, Danes, Anglo Canadians, Dutch, English and Welsh, Irish, Austrians and Czechs (including Bohemians, Moravians, and Slovakians), Scots, Swiss, and French Canadians. Briefly, Chinese worked in the Black Hills, while both African and Jewish Americans founded agricultural colonies, bringing the total number of enclaves to thirty-six.
Ethnic variety spawned diversity in religious persuasion: the state was home to Lutheran, Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Congregational, Mennonite, Hutterite, Dutch Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, and Jewish denominations, as well as practitioners of traditional Native American religions. Despite the efforts of Christian missionaries, the tribes preserved the traditional belief system of the Sacred Pipe, and added to it the practices of the Native American (Peyote) Church. Within ten years of statehood, immigrant South Dakotans supported sixteen higher educational institutions and a greater number of academies—an array of choices that encouraged the preservation of cultural variety. When the immigrant population peaked in 1930, there existed no "typical South Dakotans."
My observation is this: all those groups intermarried to make it LOOK like a white enclave. But I had a good friend in grade school who "LOOKED" white, but whose last name was Ching (definitely a Chinese name.) I looked back at some old year books, and with my 30 years experience in the extremely diverse society of Hawaii, I realized that several classmates were of various and sundry other races - Libyan, Indian (from India), Asian, African-american-- only they had assimilated so much that we just didn't notice.
The book Dakota talked about some of the insular behaviors of South Dakota. And to an extent, that has been true. But as I continue to say, it isn't all that different from any other state with small towns. THAT is the gestalt of small town EARTH. I've always had the theory that everything boils down to TRIBE. Think about that awful movie Clan of the Cave Bear. The tribe was brown, and a two-year old little white girl came along. They were frightened of her, because she was different.
The movie was awful, but the point well taken. We are hardwired to mistrust that which is different; we feel safer dealing with the Knowns. People who travel, and/or who have a lot of exposure to the world and to other travelers, tend to be more accepting and tolerant of differences. We can't legislate decency. We can't force people to think the way we do. We can only expose people to new ideas and new thoughts in an environment that is safe.
As I've said, I've lived in 4 states and worked in 6 countries. We have it good. Every state has lousy education right now. The "no child left behind' act didn't help. And instead of paying millions of dollars to grown men and women to play sports, we should be paying that kind of wage to teachers who are forming the very basis of our future. And we don't. But maybe the answer is deeper: maybe it's time we recognize that the world has changed with the internet (look at US!) and we need to use this time of crisis with our education system to re-engineer education. We need to look at it from the bottom up and change it so it makes sense in 21st century earth. Our kids are bored out of their skulls. That is a whole 'nother thread... but don't beat SD up for being like most other states. All I know is the education I got there was stellar!
This topic has been an excellent read so far. I travel to Aberdeen and Huron frequently with my job. My Texas accent gives me away every time, as to not being a local. South Dakota is one of my favorite destinations but as for the winter, you fine folks are much tougher than this Texan. 10 degrees with a strong constant wind is a way of life and I respect you for that.
It's definitely not paradise here and it is good to bring out the negatives.
Camden, it might be a good idea for you to contact Dakota Roots with your concerns. Their name alone tells us that they would be targeting whites because that's the race that would've left. Maybe they can expand or get together with another group and target more people???? It probably never occured to them that they were omitting other races since their original goal seems to be bringing back natives South Dakotans.
That's an idea - I'm thinking with the economy right now these efforts won't be nearly much as needed as they have been in recent years, but I think it's good in recruitment efforts for the state to present itself as open and inclusive. To be fair, however, the "Roots" idea probably does appeal to a number of former South Dakotans - it's like telling people that they'll get "preferential" treatment for wanting to come back, and I know or have read of a number of people living outstate that decided to return to SD after having families. When I tried to return after college graduation, it didn't go so well for me, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammie
I'm glad your parents made the right choice in their move. But I won't be getting the violin out for educators.(but I'm sure you know that) I respect them and admire the work they do, but we've discussed all the perks before. They are respected here and many places show that. The Rec Center offers a 20 or 25% discount to teachers. Tanning salons offer a 20% discount to show them their appreciation. Just like healthcare professionals, their basic screenings and flu shots are free. That's rare and most professions do not offer those things.
....
The SDRS has done a wonderful job in securing the retirement funds for it's participants so teachers are one group that has done well in this downslide.
Honestly, the educators I know feel more frustration with administration stifling them and dealing with "no child left behind" then in their wages. Many of them realize that they do get perks and that people do appreciate them. Christmastime always helps them realize how much they're adored by their students and parents and the community in general.
Jammie, you're right to mention all of the community support that SD teachers often get from parents and students - this was a common occurrence. And it was similarly the case that my own parents were just as fed up with administrations/ politics in SD as with the pay. I've heard that new pay structures have been implemented in SFSD in recent years that are more fair/ equitable, but the issue with the SFSD wasn't so much the starting pay (although I think this also was often lowest in nation) as it was the inability to move up much at all in pay due to years experience accrued and/or additional education completed (although I believe there was a program to help teachers pay for grad school which was good). But to use SFSD as an example, a friend of mine's calculus class had an assignment where they once calculated the amount of years/ education it would take for a teacher to reach the top of the pay scale in Sioux Falls - their findings: it would take the average teacher over 100 years to get to the top of SFSD's pay scale. Also, one thing that people may or may not be aware of is that the Sioux Falls School District in past years would routinely "pink slip" a large percentage of their workforce at the end of every year (I know this was very common from 1989 -1999)...for all I know they pink slipped every teacher in the district, but I know for sure that any music/ arts teacher got the slip at the end of every year. If the administration then decided to change what school the teacher was going to teach at they would call them to inform them before the start of the fall about the new assignment, but if the teacher was going back to the same school it was basically up to the teacher just to assume that they still had a job at the start of the next year and/or find out if they hadn't heard anything. So, it was tough for a family like ours to feel secure if both of the parents were getting pink slipped at the end of every year (despite tons of recognition by their students, parents, and community at large) - even after devoting 10 years of their careers to that district and winning some awards. Also, at least in my parents' case in Sioux Falls, teachers were often expected to carry unrealistic workloads; e.g. teaching too many classes at too large of class sizes and, at times, in facilities that were ocassionally not conducive to quality learning.
So, much of what I am referring to is specific to the Sioux Falls School District, and of course I am a little bit biased based on my own family's experience. But, the school boards and administrations in SFSD during my years there was absolutely horrible and it didn't help that teachers have absolutely zero bargaining rights (it's illegal for teachers to strike in SD). Also, I agree that being a teacher can be a very desirable career - it's one of the most rewarding jobs out there, and if viewed on the spectrum of average South Dakota jobs the wages actually look pretty decent. But, you have to take into consideration that all teachers need at least a 4 year degree and licenses (well, sometimes) to teach in South Dakota - when you compare the amt of education required to other jobs that require a similar amount, I would argue that teacher pay is either less or comparative (depending on what industry) to other SD jobs....but luckily, there are a lot of people committed/ dedicated to careers in education (and luckily for SD, it's nearly impossible for a recent college grad to land a teaching job in MN with all of the competition here).
And Jammie, I'm the one at fault for turning this into another "teacher pay, etc" thread...my apologies!
Camden Northsider: The state is more diverse than even I knew when i lived there. Just did a presentation in Pierre, and as such, did a ton of research on SD. This is paraphrased from South Dakota: Definition from Answers.com
The population that gathered in South Dakota from 1860-1920 was as varied as the terrain. Thirteen of fourteen ancestral tribes of Sioux formed nine modern reservation societies that gained recognition by the U.S. Government as "domestic dependent nations." Due to the Sioux's gradual relinquishment of land over more than half a century, South Dakota's first generation of immigrants included representations from most European nations. Immigration records reveal that they included—in order of diminishing numbers—Norwegians, Germans (including Polish), Russians (including Germans from Russia and Finns), Swedes, Danes, Anglo Canadians, Dutch, English and Welsh, Irish, Austrians and Czechs (including Bohemians, Moravians, and Slovakians), Scots, Swiss, and French Canadians. Briefly, Chinese worked in the Black Hills, while both African and Jewish Americans founded agricultural colonies, bringing the total number of enclaves to thirty-six.
Ethnic variety spawned diversity in religious persuasion: the state was home to Lutheran, Catholic, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Congregational, Mennonite, Hutterite, Dutch Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, and Jewish denominations, as well as practitioners of traditional Native American religions. Despite the efforts of Christian missionaries, the tribes preserved the traditional belief system of the Sacred Pipe, and added to it the practices of the Native American (Peyote) Church. Within ten years of statehood, immigrant South Dakotans supported sixteen higher educational institutions and a greater number of academies—an array of choices that encouraged the preservation of cultural variety. When the immigrant population peaked in 1930, there existed no "typical South Dakotans."
My observation is this: all those groups intermarried to make it LOOK like a white enclave. But I had a good friend in grade school who "LOOKED" white, but whose last name was Ching (definitely a Chinese name.) I looked back at some old year books, and with my 30 years experience in the extremely diverse society of Hawaii, I realized that several classmates were of various and sundry other races - Libyan, Indian (from India), Asian, African-american-- only they had assimilated so much that we just didn't notice.
The book Dakota talked about some of the insular behaviors of South Dakota. And to an extent, that has been true. But as I continue to say, it isn't all that different from any other state with small towns. THAT is the gestalt of small town EARTH. I've always had the theory that everything boils down to TRIBE. Think about that awful movie Clan of the Cave Bear. The tribe was brown, and a two-year old little white girl came along. They were frightened of her, because she was different.
The movie was awful, but the point well taken. We are hardwired to mistrust that which is different; we feel safer dealing with the Knowns. People who travel, and/or who have a lot of exposure to the world and to other travelers, tend to be more accepting and tolerant of differences. We can't legislate decency. We can't force people to think the way we do. We can only expose people to new ideas and new thoughts in an environment that is safe.
As I've said, I've lived in 4 states and worked in 6 countries. We have it good. Every state has lousy education right now. The "no child left behind' act didn't help. And instead of paying millions of dollars to grown men and women to play sports, we should be paying that kind of wage to teachers who are forming the very basis of our future. And we don't. But maybe the answer is deeper: maybe it's time we recognize that the world has changed with the internet (look at US!) and we need to use this time of crisis with our education system to re-engineer education. We need to look at it from the bottom up and change it so it makes sense in 21st century earth. Our kids are bored out of their skulls. That is a whole 'nother thread... but don't beat SD up for being like most other states. All I know is the education I got there was stellar!
Great post R_cowgirl, although the first paragraph of the article you posted seemed to imply that the Sioux formed reservations of their own volition and then went about voluntarily relenquishing lands which to my knowledge isn't too historically accurate.
However, it's interesting that you mentioned the diversity of european settlers to South Dakota, something that I have just started to learn a little bit about myself. It does seem to be fairly unique, at least by midwestern standards, to have so many different european (and other) ethnic settler groups respresented throughout the state. And I primarily grew up on the east side of sioux falls, so there definitely was ethnic/ racial diversity there, and of my white friends, I remember having a number that were of French Canadian, Russian, Czech, French-Indian, and other descents (and I read just the other day that a small town we lived in for a number of years was largely formed by Swiss settlers which I was previously unaware of). If I look at my own SD heritage, a number of european descents are represented, of which I've gotten the impression (from people's reactions) that some of them must seem strange to be "together" to the average Minnesotan
That's an idea - I'm thinking with the economy right now these efforts won't be nearly much as needed as they have been in recent years, but I think it's good in recruitment efforts for the state to present itself as open and inclusive. To be fair, however, the "Roots" idea probably does appeal to a number of former South Dakotans - it's like telling people that they'll get "preferential" treatment for wanting to come back, and I know or have read of a number of people living outstate that decided to return to SD after having families. When I tried to return after college graduation, it didn't go so well for me, however.
Jammie, you're right to mention all of the community support that SD teachers often get from parents and students - this was a common occurrence. And it was similarly the case that my own parents were just as fed up with administrations/ politics in SD as with the pay. I've heard that new pay structures have been implemented in SFSD in recent years that are more fair/ equitable, but the issue with the SFSD wasn't so much the starting pay (although I think this also was often lowest in nation) as it was the inability to move up much at all in pay due to years experience accrued and/or additional education completed (although I believe there was a program to help teachers pay for grad school which was good). But to use SFSD as an example, a friend of mine's calculus class had an assignment where they once calculated the amount of years/ education it would take for a teacher to reach the top of the pay scale in Sioux Falls - their findings: it would take the average teacher over 100 years to get to the top of SFSD's pay scale. Also, one thing that people may or may not be aware of is that the Sioux Falls School District in past years would routinely "pink slip" a large percentage of their workforce at the end of every year (I know this was very common from 1989 -1999)...for all I know they pink slipped every teacher in the district, but I know for sure that any music/ arts teacher got the slip at the end of every year. If the administration then decided to change what school the teacher was going to teach at they would call them to inform them before the start of the fall about the new assignment, but if the teacher was going back to the same school it was basically up to the teacher just to assume that they still had a job at the start of the next year and/or find out if they hadn't heard anything. So, it was tough for a family like ours to feel secure if both of the parents were getting pink slipped at the end of every year (despite tons of recognition by their students, parents, and community at large) - even after devoting 10 years of their careers to that district and winning some awards. Also, at least in my parents' case in Sioux Falls, teachers were often expected to carry unrealistic workloads; e.g. teaching too many classes at too large of class sizes and, at times, in facilities that were ocassionally not conducive to quality learning.
So, much of what I am referring to is specific to the Sioux Falls School District, and of course I am a little bit biased based on my own family's experience. But, the school boards and administrations in SFSD during my years there was absolutely horrible and it didn't help that teachers have absolutely zero bargaining rights (it's illegal for teachers to strike in SD). Also, I agree that being a teacher can be a very desirable career - it's one of the most rewarding jobs out there, and if viewed on the spectrum of average South Dakota jobs the wages actually look pretty decent. But, you have to take into consideration that all teachers need at least a 4 year degree and licenses (well, sometimes) to teach in South Dakota - when you compare the amt of education required to other jobs that require a similar amount, I would argue that teacher pay is either less or comparative (depending on what industry) to other SD jobs....but luckily, there are a lot of people committed/ dedicated to careers in education (and luckily for SD, it's nearly impossible for a recent college grad to land a teaching job in MN with all of the competition here).
And Jammie, I'm the one at fault for turning this into another "teacher pay, etc" thread...my apologies!
That's interesting!
OK, I know that our state is in a budget crunch now.... Why can't they raise teacher pay? Why does education always seem to be underfunded?
That said, I don't know anything about economics/state budgets...
But we're 50th in the country for teacher pay... Why can't we change this?
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