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The military still uses them in the air. In case GPS fails, VORs fail, and it is a great tool to have.
Thanks!
They're good for teaching respect for the old seafarers, too. I enjoy the mental exercise and I don't mind admitting it looks salty as all out, but I'm really very happy it's not the only method.
Also, I merely dabble. Some of the celnav enthusiasts will show a plot with three stars and casually mention how they used an occlusion of one of Jupiter's moons to verify their chronometer setting - while I have to redo a sun plot because I added where I should have subtracted.
I love it. Here's a guy who takes ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS demonstrating that the sun actually takes up LESS angle in the sky when very near the horizon, due to distortion, and you're still arguing that a photo taken under completely unknown conditions disproves his ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS.
I bet you believe hot water freezes faster than cold water, too.
dude, I took the photo. it gets no more known than that. I apologize that I didnt have a device to measure angles with me, but again, download the damn thing and look for yourself. count the pixels. use a 93M mile focal length for the sun and appx 450 ft for the boat. plug in the numbers. I already gave you hints on all the math needed.
either refute the actual science (aka wild tangents we are told) or hush.
and those actual measurements tell us the sun varied up and down by up to 40% if we discard the highest and lowest measurement during this period. isnt that kinda, I dunno, odd? a better way would be to use a green filter so you eliminate direct scatter which would obscure the true corona. (hint: welding goggles for the overheads will work just fine)
Dane did you work on the observation error problem? thot of a few things...first You absolutely need the filter. halo effect from scatter is gong to be the worst in the overheads, you are not fixing on the corona.
second, remember when I said draw the earth and the atmosphere and the 'lines' needed for a low sighting? and remember the link I gave you that described the 'levels' or spheres of the atmosphere? do this exercise...
because of the low angle, the 'bottom' limb as you call it is always going to be the MOST distorted, and that and that alone is the reason behind the 'flatness' of the image....optics 101. that is why we always did side to side - the distortion between both datapoints is the same. yes, they are ALL distorted that is the whole point, it is the optical distortion which provides the magnified view. but top to bottom it will never work out, and it works out the worse as the image flattens more.
dude, I took the photo. it gets no more known than that. I apologize that I didnt have a device to measure angles with me, but again, download the damn thing and look for yourself. count the pixels. use a 93M mile focal length for the sun and appx 450 ft for the boat.
The boat is meaningless. Optics don't scale objects at different distances in a linear manner. It varies from lens to lens, in fact.
Take a photo of the small-looking moon overhead. Using the exact same settings on the optics, take a photo of the huge-looking moon near the horizon. Then count the pixels.
because of the low angle, the 'bottom' limb as you call it is always going to be the MOST distorted, and that and that alone is the reason behind the 'flatness' of the image....optics 101.
The boat is meaningless. Optics don't scale objects at different distances in a linear manner. It varies from lens to lens, in fact.
Take a photo of the small-looking moon overhead. Using the exact same settings on the optics, take a photo of the huge-looking moon near the horizon. Then count the pixels.
well obviously I *didnt* do that, that day as I went to sunset beach for....the sunset.
the point is, as I said from day 1, the claim is that your BRAIN and nothing else makes the sun look abnormally large at sunset and I counter with an optical illusion derived from the physics of the world we live in does.
the photo is still proof. that sun is abnormally large such that a near field object is about the same size. and you do realize, if you study optics that zooming in on the picture makes no difference, the relative size is the same because the effect placed that image on the backdrop, its not a split optic lens, zoom is zoom
my brain aint fooled, your brain aint fooled and the camera sure as hell was not fooled.
if you repeat this in key west, you can actually get the keys to the west to appear as if they are floating in the sky. brain at work again?
the term optical illusion means exactly what the words say. brains, have nothing to do with it as I can clearly preserve the image for posterity with no humans involved. what was it the nasa link said last paragraph? I think I referred to it twice....
since it appears you are also into space craft, there was a few years back, a very famous illusion image published everywhere taken from AZ or socal, in which people said it was clear evidence a friend of mine shot a missile at an airliner (you know him) when in fact, it was nothing more sinister than the SAME effect I have been discussing, on an object up high, a low observation. EXACT same effect.
well obviously I *didnt* do that, that day as I went to sunset beach for....the sunset.
Of course. I'm not saying it's not a good photo, I'm just saying it doesn't prove what you intend to prove.
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the point is, as I said from day 1, the claim is that your BRAIN and nothing else makes the sun look abnormally large at sunset
That's what NASA, Scientific American etc. are saying, yes. Oh, and I myself am saying it, but I'm not really a member of that august company.
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and I counter with an optical illusion derived from the physics of the world we live in does.
I get that. But that is very much a minority opinion.
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if you repeat this in key west, you can actually get the keys to the west to appear as if they are floating in the sky. brain at work again?
Nope, that's refraction. With the right temperature layering, you can see ships that appear to float above the horizon. But we're not talking angle of observation, we're talking angular size. Your mind insists that the disc of the sun or moon has a larger angular size near the horizon. It doesn't.
the vertical angle size is meaningless. and you really really really really need to wrap your head around this. you are trying to measure a distorted image, that you agree is distorted to prove the size of the actual object. In my 57 years, no one, and I mean no one, has ever tried to do this (and for good reason)
the vertical angle size is meaningless. and you really really really really need to wrap your head around this. you are trying to measure a distorted image, that you agree is distorted to prove the size of the actual object. In my 57 years, no one, and I mean no one, has ever tried to do this (and for good reason)
side to side. only
Just stay with me. Refraction makes the vertical angular size smaller, right? NASA has it right? The sun's measured size at the horizon is smaller in the vertical plane than when it's high in the sky?
Here's a timelapse photo of the moon rising over LA. Same camera setting. No change in angular size. The mon is not "abnormally large" near the horizon.
Last edited by Dane_in_LA; 08-03-2021 at 01:13 PM..
The moon and sun can distort and appear larger under some conditions, such as over water. I and others have witnessed that countless times, so there's no disputing it.
Just because there's no apparent distortion in many cases, doesn't mean that applies to ALL cases.
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