Why are talented but really dumb kids playing college football? (soccer, athletic)
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I played D1 football for Boston College (and yes, I earned my degree while doing it). A lot of things were mentioned/discussed in the thread (some true, some hyperbole), but I wanted to point out that this particular show "Last Chance U" is NOT representative of the actual college football experience. At least the college football experience in the regular NCAA programs whether that be DI, II or even III.
The documentary focuses on a Community/Junior College program where kids attend because they COULDN'T get into a regular program either because of talent or academics. Either that or they were flushed out of the program for various reasons or realized that they would never have a chance to play and left for a chance to showcase their talent to other schools.
For the most part, the majority of the players heading to Community or JuCo programs are dragging a ton of baggage along with them. Many of them should just give up on the dream all together, but it is sadly all they know and the only way they define themselves.
The big Community/JuCo programs are usually fueled by local talent from under-recruited or poorly considered areas for recruiters to visit. EMCC in the documentary is one such place. It primarily serves poor and rural areas of East Mississippi. Most of the players are from that area, but the team is good enough to draw in some washed out D1 talent from time to time.
What you are seeing here are broken people chasing broken dreams in the last place that will let them. The documentary is a fantastic look at these types of programs and probably one of the best overall football documentaries ever made...but it's not representative of actual top-end football programs which rapidly became the topic of discussion in the thread.
Great post.
I wonder if the OP knows about the big magnet highschool basketball and football programs? Forget recruiting kids from the next town over....they bring them in from other states.
Most schools have a Jock Major. At mine, it's American Ethnic Studies. You can tell what the Jock Major is by looking at the football roster and seeing what half the roster majors in. However, that doesn't mean everyone in the Jock Major is too dumb for anything else. Playing athletics takes up a lot of time, and also some students will end up changing majors.
Also, the Jock Major can lead places. Several Polynesian players at my school, who began in AES, found it a path to archaeology and anthropology studies to reach better understanding of their own heritages. These were All-Conference, even All-American football players--one of them 339# of interior line monster, who spent so much time with the academics and curators in the museum that they made him a museum nerd (there's a hat for it). So I don't judge what people major in. As long as they get good grades (and with the support resources for athletes at a Division I school, if you can't pass, you're a geranium), and as long as there is no cheating, and as long as they ultimately graduate (I'll never be comfortable with less than 100% graduation), then great.
So, some of them truly are dumb. But some are not dumb, but have not yet learned to learn. Some come from hideous high school environments. Some may just not seem very witty in front of a camera, or be very shy, and seem like they have nothing much to say, yet be quite bright. I don't think one should be too quick to assume a given outcome. And most are intelligent enough, though some probably have no business at any university, and as long as there is no cheating, those will weed themselves out.
First and foremost, what goes on at East Mississippi Community College isn't representative of college athletics as a whole.
Lots of hate for the young athletes. They play for a handful of reasons. Most will continue to play because they truly enjoy the sport. They have hopes of making the next level, but they all know the statistics. For some of them, it is the ticket to graduating without student debt, but most of them simply play because they love the game. For some of them, it allows them a school that they may have struggled to attend (but not succeed at) otherwise. I have a friend that played in the NFL, another that went as an undrafted free agent (but was cut) after college, one that played at Georgetown, and a good handful that played in Division I schools. They all graduated, and all are successful adults.
Athletes, football players included, have a higher graduation rate than the general public. Despite what you care to say about their lack of academic prowess, college athletes have a certain work ethic and drive that allows them success in places other than the football field. Also, many coaches find it easier to follow up on their athletes academically and make sure they go to class and turn in their work than answer an inquest from the NCAA. NCAA: College athletes breaking records in graduation rates
Now, is it likely that an athlete will succeed playing football at Alabama and majoring in Electrical Engineering? Maybe not. But that doesn't mean he can't graduate with a business degree, or if he's talented enough to hack the engineering program, not play football.
Are there some programs that are horrible cheaters? Yes (John Calipari, looking at you...)
But for every one of those there is a Stanford or Notre Dame that graduates 90% or more of their football players.
I wonder if the OP knows about the big magnet highschool basketball and football programs? Forget recruiting kids from the next town over....they bring them in from other states.
Probably not, lol. There are quite a few of them in my neck of the woods, primarily Catholic schools where the schools sports success is a large part of their identity and attraction. Many of them actively recruit players from all over and these kids generally attend tuition free due to generous booster clubs providing scholarships. One of them consistently has a couple of kids from Africa attend...and of course they just happened to pick the random 6'7" 14 year old who happens to like basketball to be the one to receive the honor of being educated in the US via their international charity program...
It does start earlier than ever though. My son plays QB and has been developing nicely in the position. He's entering 6th grade this year. Not only do we have to sift through the barrage of offers to attend training camps and join 7v7 teams, but we have started to have random coaches show up to his practices and games to inquire where he was thinking of going to high school.
A couple of the kids he trains with in a local QB club received their first D1 offers their sophomore year of high school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k
Most schools have a Jock Major. At mine, it's American Ethnic Studies. You can tell what the Jock Major is by looking at the football roster and seeing what half the roster majors in. However, that doesn't mean everyone in the Jock Major is too dumb for anything else. Playing athletics takes up a lot of time, and also some students will end up changing majors.
Also, the Jock Major can lead places. Several Polynesian players at my school, who began in AES, found it a path to archaeology and anthropology studies to reach better understanding of their own heritages. These were All-Conference, even All-American football players--one of them 339# of interior line monster, who spent so much time with the academics and curators in the museum that they made him a museum nerd (there's a hat for it). So I don't judge what people major in. As long as they get good grades (and with the support resources for athletes at a Division I school, if you can't pass, you're a geranium), and as long as there is no cheating, and as long as they ultimately graduate (I'll never be comfortable with less than 100% graduation), then great.
So, some of them truly are dumb. But some are not dumb, but have not yet learned to learn. Some come from hideous high school environments. Some may just not seem very witty in front of a camera, or be very shy, and seem like they have nothing much to say, yet be quite bright. I don't think one should be too quick to assume a given outcome. And most are intelligent enough, though some probably have no business at any university, and as long as there is no cheating, those will weed themselves out.
A few things...
1. The vast majority of football players that I have known that played in college did just fine academically. That would go for the vast majority of all college athletes that I've known. For the most part the "dumb jock" stereotype is largely a myth. Sure, there are a minority of players that have incredible skill, but struggle academically and are "helped along", but this is far and away not the majority.
2. In the world of football lineman are widely known as the smartest players on the field. That is even proven in the Wonderlic scores where the top four "smartest" positions in order are: offensive tackle, center, quarterback, offensive guard. The least are the running/full backs and receivers. So that your interior line monster being a museum nerd doesn't surprise me in the least.
3. Most support structure around the athletes, especially in the football program, is there for a very important reason...the daily life of a D1 athlete is IMMENSELY more demanding than ANY regular student on that campus, period. Not only do they have to live up to the demands placed on them academically, but the demands placed on them by their team, the school community at large and do it all under a microscope. Sorry, but I've lived it. Most people are completely clueless to the extreme demands placed on you when you're in a program...it's enough to turn an otherwise smart person into a "geranium".
They are not going on to professional sports maybe one student per year at the top college teams. For the other 40 plus football players or 12 basketball players reward is a few more years as a local celebrity and a very few of those make use of the free classroom time
That was the exact point I was making. If professional teams -- the folks who actually are in the business of paying players -- aren't willing to pay them money to play a sport, why should college teams? For those who aren't moving on to professional sports, they are still receiving a free college education, housing and food for four years in exchange for sports ability that they can't sell for any money at all on the open market. That's a pretty good bargain. The only ones who are even potentially getting the short end are the superstars who are going to make millions down the road. For them, they are still receiving necessary exposure and coaching to get them to the next level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1alker
The idea of college athletes being dumb is a meme. If you get accepted into a decent college with a high division sports team, you didn't get in just on sports merit alone.
But they might have gotten in partially due to sports merit. You really believe that all of the athletes at schools like Duke or Michigan or Stanford would have been able to get in even if they weren't athletes? I don't.
That was the exact point I was making. If professional teams -- the folks who actually are in the business of paying players -- aren't willing to pay them money to play a sport, why should college teams? For those who aren't moving on to professional sports, they are still receiving a free college education, housing and food for four years in exchange for sports ability that they can't sell for any money at all on the open market. That's a pretty good bargain. The only ones who are even potentially getting the short end are the superstars who are going to make millions down the road. For them, they are still receiving necessary exposure and coaching to get them to the next level.
I don't think outright paying the players is a good idea but there are several things that could be done in that direction to improve the condition for the players...
1. Make the scholarships guaranteed. Many people do not realize that scholarships are given out on an annual basis. If you are injured...you lose your scholarship and most likely your ability to attend the school. Making scholarships guaranteed for 4-5 years would be a huge step in the right direction.
2. Expand the medical insurance coverage provided by the NCAA to cover more than just "catastrophic" injuries. Many players who never go pro deal with lingering medical issues and their related costs from their days playing. On top of that, a fund should be established to provide for the needed financial support for those who do suffer catastrophic injuries.
3. Increase the annual living stipend to give student-athletes more flexibility and freedom since they cannot work. The vast majority of NCAA violations occur because student-athletes are desperate and poor. You can't even sell your old textbooks if your name is written in them or accept prize money from contests, etc.
4. The money to support the above three would be done by forcing any profit earned off of a players likeness (jersey, video game, advertisement, etc.) to be placed in a fund expressly to handle those items. That way no one is profiting off of the players themselves.
Quote:
But they might have gotten in partially due to sports merit. You really believe that all of the athletes at schools like Duke or Michigan or Stanford would have been able to get in even if they weren't athletes? I don't.
Sure, the sports is a factor that helps set them apart from others. You invest the time and dedication needed to compete at that level while still earning respectable grades and being a student...
I'm sure there are kids who get in over others because they are on the debate team, are accomplished coders, invented something, etc. Just because some do not wish to value athletics as part of academics, does not mean that the athletes are getting some sort of magical free ride and being admitted to schools that they have no business attending.
first thing is that most college players are much more intelligent than people give them credit.
more like SOME not most. you are not going to convince anyone you are smart by how these people talk when they give interviews and im not talking about bad public speaking skills. I dont like sports but when i hear these guys interview on the news MOST sound dumb as a door nail.if they want people to think they are smart they need to learn how to speak better. Talking like a thug isnt going to cut it.
I went to school with moses malones son he was in my same grade. That guy is dumber than a pile of dirt. Dont even tell me he got into college because he was a good basketball player. which he isnt. he spent most of his time at school not even in class and yet he still passed with a high gpa.
I played D1 football for Boston College (and yes, I earned my degree while doing it). A lot of things were mentioned/discussed in the thread (some true, some hyperbole), but I wanted to point out that this particular show "Last Chance U" is NOT representative of the actual college football experience. At least the college football experience in the regular NCAA programs whether that be DI, II or even III.
The documentary focuses on a Community/Junior College program where kids attend because they COULDN'T get into a regular program either because of talent or academics. Either that or they were flushed out of the program for various reasons or realized that they would never have a chance to play and left for a chance to showcase their talent to other schools.
For the most part, the majority of the players heading to Community or JuCo programs are dragging a ton of baggage along with them. Many of them should just give up on the dream all together, but it is sadly all they know and the only way they define themselves.
The big Community/JuCo programs are usually fueled by local talent from under-recruited or poorly considered areas for recruiters to visit. EMCC in the documentary is one such place. It primarily serves poor and rural areas of East Mississippi. Most of the players are from that area, but the team is good enough to draw in some washed out D1 talent from time to time.
What you are seeing here are broken people chasing broken dreams in the last place that will let them. The documentary is a fantastic look at these types of programs and probably one of the best overall football documentaries ever made...but it's not representative of actual top-end football programs which rapidly became the topic of discussion in the thread.
They do say that at the beginning, but they also say these are really talented players and the challenge is getting them to a 2.5 GPA to qualify for all the scouts that are hanging around and interested in them. To struggle for a 2.5 at community college, when you have a personal tutor. To not even think of taking a pencil and paper to class? University is not for everyone. These kids would be better off anywhere but a university, and if they have some skill at a sport, and that earns money, then why not play that sport? Why the 'study' farce? Those kids could be working 20 hours a week and playing in some junior league rather than wasting their time being tortured with academics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT
I don't think outright paying the players is a good idea but there are several things that could be done in that direction to improve the condition for the players...
1. Make the scholarships guaranteed. Many people do not realize that scholarships are given out on an annual basis. If you are injured...you lose your scholarship and most likely your ability to attend the school. Making scholarships guaranteed for 4-5 years would be a huge step in the right direction.
2. Expand the medical insurance coverage provided by the NCAA to cover more than just "catastrophic" injuries. Many players who never go pro deal with lingering medical issues and their related costs from their days playing. On top of that, a fund should be established to provide for the needed financial support for those who do suffer catastrophic injuries.
3. Increase the annual living stipend to give student-athletes more flexibility and freedom since they cannot work. The vast majority of NCAA violations occur because student-athletes are desperate and poor. You can't even sell your old textbooks if your name is written in them or accept prize money from contests, etc.
4. The money to support the above three would be done by forcing any profit earned off of a players likeness (jersey, video game, advertisement, etc.) to be placed in a fund expressly to handle those items. That way no one is profiting off of the players themselves.
Sure, the sports is a factor that helps set them apart from others. You invest the time and dedication needed to compete at that level while still earning respectable grades and being a student...
I'm sure there are kids who get in over others because they are on the debate team, are accomplished coders, invented something, etc. Just because some do not wish to value athletics as part of academics, does not mean that the athletes are getting some sort of magical free ride and being admitted to schools that they have no business attending.
Agree. Or even better, just tell them that they will be players, then when their term on the sports team is up they can start their scholarship.
There used to be a rule in high school sports that a child had to maintain a certain grade point average in order to be on the school team. Then parents of good ball players screamed that their children were being discriminated against so the grade point average was discontinued. Guess this idea just graduated into college.
I don't think outright paying the players is a good idea but there are several things that could be done in that direction to improve the condition for the players...
1. Make the scholarships guaranteed. Many people do not realize that scholarships are given out on an annual basis. If you are injured...you lose your scholarship and most likely your ability to attend the school. Making scholarships guaranteed for 4-5 years would be a huge step in the right direction.
2. Expand the medical insurance coverage provided by the NCAA to cover more than just "catastrophic" injuries. Many players who never go pro deal with lingering medical issues and their related costs from their days playing. On top of that, a fund should be established to provide for the needed financial support for those who do suffer catastrophic injuries.
3. Increase the annual living stipend to give student-athletes more flexibility and freedom since they cannot work. The vast majority of NCAA violations occur because student-athletes are desperate and poor. You can't even sell your old textbooks if your name is written in them or accept prize money from contests, etc.
4. The money to support the above three would be done by forcing any profit earned off of a players likeness (jersey, video game, advertisement, etc.) to be placed in a fund expressly to handle those items. That way no one is profiting off of the players themselves.
Sure, the sports is a factor that helps set them apart from others. You invest the time and dedication needed to compete at that level while still earning respectable grades and being a student...
I'm sure there are kids who get in over others because they are on the debate team, are accomplished coders, invented something, etc. Just because some do not wish to value athletics as part of academics, does not mean that the athletes are getting some sort of magical free ride and being admitted to schools that they have no business attending.
another part is that some (maybe most) of the athletes dont want to attend college. they are only there because the nba and nfl are in collusion with the ncaa.
i would get rid of the one-and-done rule and those that try to jump from high school to the nba draft and get cut have to live the rest of there lives with a grown-up mistake (like the rest of adult society).
or maybe nba teams can draft high school players and put their money in escrow for one year until they graduate college at least guaranteeing them 1 year of salary.
i would call it the kevin ware rule: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoiaUV7fGEI
Last edited by stanley-88888888; 08-05-2016 at 03:14 PM..
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