Moving to STL: Demun, Moorlands, or CWE? (St. Louis, Clayton: apartment, insurance)

[nonSTLnative]

Hey, everyone. I'm looking to move to the Saint Louis (having never lived there) and I've been learning a lot from the posts here. I need more thoughts.

I want to live where I would feel secure about my own safety, finding a street parking spot after work/at night where it won't be broken into, and being able to walk to a few shops and cafes. My basic problem is -- how close can I live to Forest Park without sacrificing safety and without paying more than I can truly afford.

My budget is right around $800 (probably the high threshold). I like the CWE and Demun areas, generally. But, from the listings I've seen, there seems to be no simple way to determine if it is reasonably priced, is safe, and with sufficient parking...though they are close enough to Forest Park.

The Moorlands area is also in my radar. I like some of the listings, though they are farther from the park than I'd prefer. I can get less space for more money, but I'd have more secure living space (it seems to me, anyway), better parking, some walkability to the Clayton shops.

Dogtown -- there doesn't seem to be too much positive perception about this area...? U City and The Loop aren't on my list.

I'm single, btw. I'd like to be close enough to some social areas, but not too close because there will likely be more people and car traffic than I'd care for.

Thanks for any insights!

--nonSTLnative

[zach_33]

Others are sure to join in on this one, but... Yup, I'd say you narrowed it down pretty nicely. If safety is your primary objective and your choices are those three areas, I would guess (not saying I know for sure, but I have spent enough time in all three areas to make an informed guess) that the Moorlands would be the best of the three. The Moorlands have more of a buffer than either of the other two, it's got a good mile in any direction with nothing but Clayton's central business district and wealthy residential areas, often extremely wealthy. I think there was a serial rapist a few years back in the Moorlands and it was *huge* news, presumably because it is so very unusual in that area. DeMun is probably a close second, but that close proximilty to Forest Park and Skinker Blvd would lead me to believe that property crime (like a broken into car parked on the street) is far more likely there. Thieves love to break into cars around Forest Park. CWE will have more crime than the other two, across the board.

[billiken]

If you're street parking, I'd advise Moorlands. Street parking in the CWE can be semi-difficult to come by from time to time--I had a garage spot. Honestly, when I lived in STL, I made sure my comprehensive insurance deductible was fairly low just to be cautious.

[Dawn10am]

I'm not as familiar with the Moorlands as the other two, but I can guess that it's pretty much just like the rest of Clayton--safe, upper class, and fairly walkable. The parking would be the best there.

DeMun is also very nice, but the parking is probably more difficult. Access to Forest Park is fantastic from there.

The CWE is less safe and the parking is the most difficult, but there's also the most things to do within walking distance and the street energy is much more palpable than the other two.

Dogtown is decidedly less upscale than all three, but not a bad neighborhood at all. You'd probably get much more apartment for your money there.

Personally I'd go with the CWE, but then again I'm a shameless CWE booster. Even though there's a bit more crime it's by no means "dangerous." The quality of apartment you'd get in the CWE, Moorlands, and DeMun for $800 is about the same in all three so I'd be more inclined to pick one based on amenities, and the CWE offers the most. The parking is not ideal, but I wouldn't make a decision about where to live based on parking alone.

[mike0421]

Demun is my favorite. You are between Forest Park, Clayton, you can hop Skinker up to the Delmar Loop.

[aragx6]

I think it would be a mistake to not consider Dogtown on your budget. You can get a lot of apartment for that price point (or even below it). It's safe but not quite so walkable -- for walkability the closer you can be to Tamm and Clayton the better.

And the Loop is one of the best, most walkable and fun neighborhoods in St. Louis and is as safe as the CWE will be, so I'd give another look there too.

[EyesInTheSky]

I'm also a transplant to St. Louis and have lived here for going on three years now. But I have plenty of experience in cities, having been born and raised in the south side of Chicago. I did the same thing you're doing by way of using this forum to perform advance research on the best and safest neighborhoods to live in. Indeed I even recognize a few of the user names in this thread, some of whom gave me helpful advice before I moved here. (And I thank members of the forum for being so helpful!)

With that caveat I'd like to say one thing, and though it's not my intent I know this is going to rub most of the veteran participants the wrong way, and it's this: St. Louis has a heck of a lot of violent crime (and huge amounts of property crime) and you need to be very careful where you live. There are large areas of St. Louis that are as violent as anyplace you're going to find in the United States, and all the persuasive (though well intended) pep talks from locals that claim the city is safe will NEVER convince me otherwise.

If I had a friend or a relative moving here, especially if female and single, I'd advise them to live in the suburbs. Thus, my advice to you is to stay the heck away from CWE. If you move to CWE you'll be lucky if you're only robbed and perhaps beaten, unlike Megan Boken, a 23-year old SLU grad that was recently murdered in broad daylight while going to her alumni volleyball match. And of course your car is going to get vandalized and robbed. Just don't do it. Live further out; you'll improve your odds. In CWE you've got no natural buffer from "the problem," which lurks just a few city blocks to the north.

I do agree with the others about Moorlands, which seems like a great neighborhood based on the dozen or so times I've hung around there (I have a friend that lives in Moorlands). I've passed through Demun a number of times and it seems okay, and Forest Park is right across the street of course. And the area just north of there, along Delmar (I think they call it Delmar Loop), has a really vibrant nightlife scene, although last summer there were large packs of "youths" from St. Louis terrorizing that area on a number of nights. Delmar Loop, like CWE, also lacks sufficient natural buffers from "the problem."

So my strong recommendation is CWE and most any other location that's inside the St. Louis city limits should be scratched off your list. Unless you want to dramatically increase the chance of being the victim of a violent crime, avoid living in St. Louis city; go with one of the many very nice nearby suburbs. And get yourself a concealed-carry permit so you can arm yourself with a pistol when you're traveling around the city, especially if you're going to be out walking around in Forest Park and such.

And I know I'm now going to get flamed by the regulars for expressing these opinions...

[Dawn10am]

Well, your post is not totally untrue, albeit a bit exaggerated. The CWE does have a higher crime rate than the suburbs and I agree that it has a lot to do with a "trickling down" from north of Delmar. However, just as the crime trickles south from North City it also trickles west into the County. It's not like there's a giant wall at the city limits. Not to mention that Megan Boken's killers were actually from the County and drove to the CWE specifically to rob someone. They could have just as easily driven to Clayton. The only way to totally avoid the problem is to live in the far, far suburbs, but you'd be sacrificing a whole lot in terms of quality of life to do that.

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by Dawn10am

Well, your post is not totally untrue, albeit a bit exaggerated. The CWE does have a higher crime rate than the suburbs and I agree that it has a lot to do with a "trickling down" from north of Delmar. However, just as the crime trickles south from North City it also trickles west into the County. It's not like there's a giant wall at the city limits. Not to mention that Megan Boken's killers were actually from the County and drove to the CWE specifically to rob someone. They could have just as easily driven to Clayton. The only way to totally avoid the problem is to live in the far, far suburbs, but you'd be sacrificing a whole lot in terms of quality of life to do that.

I'm not so sure if you can ever completely avoid being victimized by a crime, though you can certainly minimize risk by moving further away from the city, however, that isn't always a remedy. For instance, a co-worker lives in Jefferson County and tells me his neighborhood has higher incidents of crime than many towns in St. Louis County. Sometimes living further away from a city center results in a proportional decrease in property crime rate, often it doesn't. Violent crime, on the other hand, is a different beast. It would be very rare indeed to replicate a Megan Boken scenario in Eureka or Wentzville.

Then there's the matter of quality of life. Believe it or not, there are some that actually correlate high safety and school quality as being sound gauges of quality of life, in exchange for what many younger posters here might think of as an 'antiseptic' lifestyle i.e. driving community instead of walking, an abundance of chain businesses and not many local ones, and people who share same values (i.e. raising kids in 2400 cookie cutter sq ft homes with 1/4 acre lots). It comes back to what ones desires are when it comes to that sought after quality of life. I might not share these values, but I would never disabuse anyone from seeking them out. The OP has to realize that the St. Louis area is in the whole, a very robust, and diverse metro that pretty much offers any type of neighborhood imaginable.

[BoomBoxing]

Originally Posted by mike0421

Violent crime, on the other hand, is a different beast. It would be very rare indeed to replicate a Megan Boken scenario in Eureka or Wentzville.

The Megan Boken case was very rare, for the CWE and the city in general. The vast majority of homicides are not random robbery attempts. The city typically has a couple of high profile homicides per year, such as the Maggie O's bartender a few years back, the knockout game incident last year, or the Lasalle Park home invasion a few years ago.

As terrible as those incidents are, it is important to remember that they are very very rare. Not living in the city due to these incidents is like never driving because people die in car crashes (which happens a LOT more frequently in the far suburbs BTW) or never getting out on the lake and river because you might drown.