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Old 06-02-2014, 09:07 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,266 posts, read 5,756,815 times
Reputation: 4274

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Nope, we're still a right-to-be-treated-like-a-human-being state.
Not allowing workers a choice about joining a union is treating people like a human being?
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:18 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,034,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
I have no idea why we need public sector unions but that's another discussion entirely.
Think of it this way...
what if your employer could pass their own laws to enforce their business decisions?

As an example, St Louis County passed an ethics law that gave them a blanket region-wide 12 month non-compete agreement on all of their employees that bars them from working for any other government entity or any vendor unless their new employer pays a fine of one year's salary and voids any contracts with the county (paying any damages that go with those contracts too). No private employer could ever put such a thing in place as a contract; the courts would toss it instantly. But public sector employers can pass a law instead and skip contract law altogether.

Similar situations exist with FMLA, ADA, and other workplace protections where Missouri school districts and other public entities have qualified immunity. That's why public sector unions exist...
in other states.

Most people in the state of Missouri do not realize that unions are barred for Missouri public employees other than a few narrow exceptions (mostly public safety), and that is part of the reason Missouri provides such a constant stream of abusive laws like those above. Also probably why Missouri has the lowest paid, least experienced, and least educated public sector workforce in the country.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:30 AM
 
3,696 posts, read 2,575,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
Not allowing workers a choice about joining a union is treating people like a human being?
You're talking about taking away workers' choice to unionize and calling it an increase in choice? Cute.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
3,360 posts, read 7,328,122 times
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I remember when I joined my union job back in '06 we were informed that we had a choice to either join the union or not join the union...what you didn't have a choice for was paying union dues, those were mandatory and collected by the union regardless of representation. So if you didn't join, you were not represented, and you'd pay 1.5% of your salary towards the union...

What RTW really hits at is the money, as stated earlier a "free rider" system. How big of a deal is it, not huge honestly. If the union was to dissolve, it does (some unions likely need that) at which point the company will no longer be negotiating with a unified set of workers, if the work rules slip, compensation declines, or the overall morale of the workforce is negatively effected you would likely see a push to unionize come up. The company will then dangle carrots, bump pay, or provide bonuses to provide incentives for the workforce to not unionize, but the vote will depend on just how bad things have gotten...

If the union goes away, and your work and compensation doesn't change...you just padded an extra 1.5% in your pocket.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:34 PM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,034,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post
.... the overall morale of the workforce is negatively effected you would likely see a push to unionize come up.
Missouri has a moratorium on new unions. I forget the cutoff year, but only unions that formed after a certain date are legal. That's why there are only two teachers unions and no IT unions in the state, because only two teachers unions (and obviously no IT unions) were formed before the moratorium.

If a union dissolves, it cannot be replaced. Harris Stowe teachers tried to unionize, and got smacked down. They were allowed to collectively bargaining, but could not actually form a union (just like every other K-12 district in the state other than KCPS and SLPS).
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:01 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,266 posts, read 5,756,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
You're talking about taking away workers' choice to unionize and calling it an increase in choice? Cute.
I don't see how RTW takes away a choice to unionize - that choice still exists.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:20 PM
 
3,696 posts, read 2,575,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
I don't see how RTW takes away a choice to unionize - that choice still exists.
The whole point of RTW is kneecapping unions' viability by introducing a free-rider problem.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:34 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
4,009 posts, read 5,814,427 times
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The primary problem with RTW States, the way I see it (from living in the RTW North Carolina almost 5 years) is the At Will Employment factor.

As for the Unions, they're weakened in RTW states, and a lot of employers you'll find will actually discourage their staff members from joining unions, which is where the At Will employment aspect can become scary if you want to keep your job.

As Union Members become the minority in the workplace, their bargaining power for better pay / conditions / benefits is also significantly weakened to the point where they have no strength.

Back to the At Will employment, in RTW States your manager can fire you just because they feel like it. Maybe their best buddy needs your job, maybe you were talking to co workers about joining a Union, maybe you were just having a bad hair day. Of course, employees can quit at any time, too, but I this economy that's often not the smartest option. RTW makes it easier for employers to take advantage of their employees without consequence.

Having lived and worked in RTW and Non RTW places, and having been a part of Unions and not a part of Unions... I would take Unions and Non RTW States any day of the week.

Finally, statistics show that workers on average get paid less in RTW States than non RTW in most cases.
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Old 06-03-2014, 04:07 PM
 
3,696 posts, read 2,575,157 times
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Aside from the fact that union contracts generally prevent at-will employment, RTW has nothing to do with at-will employment.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:08 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,266 posts, read 5,756,815 times
Reputation: 4274
Quote:
Originally Posted by glamatomic View Post
The primary problem with RTW States, the way I see it (from living in the RTW North Carolina almost 5 years) is the At Will Employment factor.

As for the Unions, they're weakened in RTW states, and a lot of employers you'll find will actually discourage their staff members from joining unions, which is where the At Will employment aspect can become scary if you want to keep your job.

As Union Members become the minority in the workplace, their bargaining power for better pay / conditions / benefits is also significantly weakened to the point where they have no strength.

Back to the At Will employment, in RTW States your manager can fire you just because they feel like it. Maybe their best buddy needs your job, maybe you were talking to co workers about joining a Union, maybe you were just having a bad hair day. Of course, employees can quit at any time, too, but I this economy that's often not the smartest option. RTW makes it easier for employers to take advantage of their employees without consequence.

Having lived and worked in RTW and Non RTW places, and having been a part of Unions and not a part of Unions... I would take Unions and Non RTW States any day of the week.

Finally, statistics show that workers on average get paid less in RTW States than non RTW in most cases.
You're confusing me because I think you are confusing RTW and at-will.

A union members employment relationship with an employer is governed by the collective bargaining agreement, but for everyone else, you are an at-will employee in most states unless you have an employment agreement.

Missouri is an at-will employment state even though it is not a RTW state. In other words, unless you have an employment agreement (which could include a union collective bargaining agreement), you are an at-will employee.

Of course, even then you may be subject to federal anti-discrimination laws if you belong to a protected class.

Last edited by MUTGR; 06-03-2014 at 09:20 PM..
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