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Old 02-08-2014, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
6,528 posts, read 9,622,437 times
Reputation: 5100

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn10am View Post
A lot of people say it's because of the crime and the schools which, while not untrue, is really a chicken and egg argument. The schools wouldn't have suffered so much and the crime rate wouldn't have risen so high if the middle class hadn't abandoned the city a generation or two ago. Now it's a vicious cycle: Middle class abandons the city > schools slide and crime increases > city has a hard time attracting the middle class back because of bad schools and high crime. Granted, crime is more of an issue in some parts of the city than others, but the schools are an issue all over. The city's best hope is to keep up the grassroots revitalization of neighborhoods and benefit from the demographic shifts that are about to hand the suburbs their gonads.
Just how dangerous or bad is the crime in St. Louis? Is the downtown area safe at least? Beautiful downtown, be a shame if it's also plagued by crime.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Mishawaka, Indiana
6,528 posts, read 9,622,437 times
Reputation: 5100
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
Parts are doing ok...

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...2,180.1,,0,1.6

Then there are parts that aren't so great...

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...248.37,,0,-1.4

And then there's this.

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...=12,31.67,,0,0

It seems that there's less blight and more people the further away you are from downtown on the North side. There's still a hell of a lot of blight in that area though. But I do not think that the area is "long gone"-though it has a long way to go, it's ripe for redevelopment, which people like Paul McKee (with his NorthSide Regeneration Project) are looking to take advantage of. Plus, the communities are more than capable of restoring themselves when they unite-get some info on Old North St. Louis (and the ONSL project) for a great example of such a grassroots movement.

If you want to see "long gone," cross the river. I have hope for EStL but realistically, it's burrowing itself below rock bottom with no way out.
Those areas look rough. The empty field picture kind of reminds me of some areas of Detroit that are so abandoned that old neighborhoods are nothing but empty fields. Kind of surprising.

The nicer picture you posted kind of reminds me of a lower density version of Chicago's south side. It's built up, and has its positives, but nothing terribly fancy either. Just a middle of the road working class area.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:46 PM
 
1,710 posts, read 1,774,351 times
Reputation: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
Those areas look rough. The empty field picture kind of reminds me of some areas of Detroit that are so abandoned that old neighborhoods are nothing but empty fields. Kind of surprising.

The nicer picture you posted kind of reminds me of a lower density version of Chicago's south side. It's built up, and has its positives, but nothing terribly fancy either. Just a middle of the road working class area.
And that's pretty much exactly how it is. Those individuals further north are propped up by industry jobs along the riverfront and along the fringes of the city, as well as a big industrial complex towards the far northwestern edge of the city. The abandoned portions literally have nothing to support them as of right now.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:47 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
1,221 posts, read 2,380,529 times
Reputation: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
Just how dangerous or bad is the crime in St. Louis? Is the downtown area safe at least? Beautiful downtown, be a shame if it's also plagued by crime.
Most of the crime in St. Louis is concentrated on the north side, with another isolated pocket on the southeast side of the city (though not as bad as the north side). Downtown is average. Not Mayberry, but not dangerous either.

I actually created a map that (I think) sums up how safe/unsafe/generally desirable each area of St. Louis is here: //www.city-data.com/forum/st-lo...hborhoods.html
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:47 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,266 posts, read 5,756,815 times
Reputation: 4274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn10am View Post
The city's best hope is to keep up the grassroots revitalization of neighborhoods and benefit from the demographic shifts that are about to hand the suburbs their gonads.
My goodness, which demographic shifts are those?
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:54 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
1,221 posts, read 2,380,529 times
Reputation: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
My goodness, which demographic shifts are those?
Perhaps I was being a bit hyperbolic, but I was referring to 1) the shrinking middle class, and 2) the decline in 2.5-children households. Less money = less to spend on a McMansion on an acre of land. Fewer children = less need for high-quality, free public schools. With most Americans making less money and having fewer (if any) children, an apartment/condo in the City is going to look a lot more desirable than a vinyl box in St. Peters going forward.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:06 PM
 
1,017 posts, read 1,045,605 times
Reputation: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
Those areas look rough. The empty field picture kind of reminds me of some areas of Detroit that are so abandoned that old neighborhoods are nothing but empty fields. Kind of surprising.

The nicer picture you posted kind of reminds me of a lower density version of Chicago's south side. It's built up, and has its positives, but nothing terribly fancy either. Just a middle of the road working class area.
On it's way to being Little Detroit
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:17 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
4,009 posts, read 5,814,427 times
Reputation: 4569
Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherphotographer View Post
On it's way to being Little Detroit
That correlation is nothing new. When I first moved to St. Louis 8+ years ago, I frequently heard and read about the comparison.

On the bright side though, I can honestly say that I've seen improvements since I first moved here and since I moved back. Downtown especially seems to have improved a lot since I last lived here.
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Paris
1,728 posts, read 2,172,369 times
Reputation: 1014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdAilment View Post
It's obvious St. Louis is a rust belt city, and located in the midwest, not the most desirable region of the country. But St. Louis metro is a hot area of all sorts of innovative start up companies, Fortune 500 companies, leading medical centers, universities, tourism, commerce, development, etc.

St. Louis really isn't known as Detroit or even Cleveland, it's seen as a lot better off. Yet how do we explain that St. Louis has lost over 500,000 people over the course of 50 years? And it continues to shrink? Even St. Louis county lost population in the last census.

Forgive me, I am not a St. Louis native, nor have I ever lived there, but the city fascinates me and I am curious on why it continues to shed population. I found this article slightly disturbing about the future of the city of St. Louis.

Census shows city is 'hollowing out' : News
Shrinking so rapidly is kind of a weird way to phrase it when the metro is still growing and the city's losses has just about levelled off...
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Saint Louis, MO
3,360 posts, read 7,328,122 times
Reputation: 2170
Quote:
Originally Posted by OuttaTheLouBurbs View Post
Parts are doing ok...

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...2,180.1,,0,1.6

Then there are parts that aren't so great...

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...248.37,,0,-1.4

And then there's this.

https://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=...=12,31.67,,0,0

It seems that there's less blight and more people the further away you are from downtown on the North side. There's still a hell of a lot of blight in that area though. But I do not think that the area is "long gone"-though it has a long way to go, it's ripe for redevelopment, which people like Paul McKee (with his NorthSide Regeneration Project) are looking to take advantage of. Plus, the communities are more than capable of restoring themselves when they unite-get some info on Old North St. Louis (and the ONSL project) for a great example of such a grassroots movement.

If you want to see "long gone," cross the river. I have hope for EStL but realistically, it's burrowing itself below rock bottom with no way out.
The spot in Baden from your first link can be deceiving. Driving through there I thought it was a very cool downtown area, and I still agree with that. But it has a ways to go to be a livable neighborhood...either way, having a nice downtown like that is integral to the rebuilding of the community which puts it in a nice spot for some revitalization.

I did some home improvement work in the late 90's early 2000's off Cass Ave and remember it being rough then, and not a whole lot better now. Much of North St. Louis isn't ripe for gentrification just because it's simply not desirable for investors and doesn't have the amenities that new residents are looking for.

In order for the redo to work, it'll have to be massive in scale and require large sums of capital to get moving...Despite what many say about McKee, he's the only one who's putting any money where his mouth is regarding the North side....and that's a start.
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