Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
St Louis is "Gateway to the West" western city in it's nickname. St Louis was relevant, important and a top tier city....over 100 years ago. It's lost it's relevancy and importance to Chicago and to Minneapolis-St Paul. There is no rivalry between St Louis and KC, citizens of both cities don't think of or care one way or the other about either city. St Louis does have a jealousy and rivalry with Chicago that Chicago probably doesn't have towards St Louis.
The name "Gateway to the West" does not mean that St. Louis is itself western. It means that the west starts beyond the city in the hinterlands of Missouri. Traditionally, St. Louis was the last outpost of established eastern civilization before settlers got to the the wild, untamed West, and that still holds true today. If you're going from east to west, St. Louis is the last eastern city and KC is the first western city.
Lived in StL the majority of my life, made trips to KC incollege with friends from there, worked for the StL office of a KC based firmfor 8 years made a lot of trips there in that time, did a several projects there, feel like I know the cities well
I think there is some rivalry, but it is relatively minor,the metros do not work well together, KC fought against the Boeing incentive package and McGee’s Northside TIF, Enterprise fought against the rental car tax to support the Sprint Center, though I do not believe it was a coordinated effort as “StL is trying to keep KC from having an arena” as it was spun in the KC media during the 2004 vote.
More to the point, I don’t think the metros understand (for lack of a better word) each other well. They have some similarities especiallyin the new suburbs – But the urban areas are fundamentally different, the nuances of which are often lost on those from the other city.
Cities are not just creations of the present butamalgamations of history, culture and fates fickle hand. I think most people look at the two cities on the surface and see similar places, due rough equivalencies in population, parallels in urban problems and of course the fate of “sameness” that most US cities suffer from due to standardization ofsuburban development patterns because of the monolithic nature of real estateand retail culture.
But when you drill down into the cities you find 2 different places, the evidence survives in culture but is also in the streets, buildings and development patterns of both, they were built not just in different times, but by different types of people. The built of environment of any city is its story frozen in time, values, hopes, aspirations and failures capture instone, brick, wood, asphalt and concrete.
St. Louis has European bones, a first generation immigrant city; it’s the old world, like a fish out of water in the Midwest. Craggy, complex,power and remembered glory hum underneath the old streets waiting to be released again.
Kansas City is the American machine, open and airy like the promise of the west, your own plot of land, sprawling and robust, it’s almost like Aaron Copeland’s Hoe-Down should be constantly playing throughout the city.
It’s not to say KC did not have immigrants and old world ties, or St, Louis doesn’t have some western touches, they both do, but they are not the defining factor in what defines the city in physical parameters, and hence a part of respective identities.
I will get into the physical differences in another post as this one is getting long - Off to watch Bosnia V Ivory Coast!
St. Louis is way more Miles Davis "So What", I do feel Aaron Copeland's Hoe-Down is good for Kansas City. Kansas City always felt like it would be more like Dallas if it was a really large city. St. Louis always felt like it would be a combination of Chicago and Philadelphia. St. Louis just has more of a traditional eastern vibe, Kansas City is way more western in built environment and layout.
KC is a mix of everything. Someone coming from E only sees the W elements. Someone coming from W thinks KC is more E. Ditto for those coming from N/S. STL is truly more old world, KC has more 'new economy' feel to it but is influenced by all corners of US and in between.
Now if KC/STL could just work together and squash MO state politics from returning to the dark ages.
BTW, bebop and swing mostly started out of KC. You know, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Count Bassie, etc - long before Miles. The Aaron Copeland reference is kind of a cheap shot yet youse guys are claiming there is no attitude.
For me, cities in NC lacked culture. I was frequently told they do have culture, it's just a different sort... which may be true. There was kind of a soul-less element though that's very difficult to describe and very difficult to put your finger on.
Like you said, they do everything right on paper, but for me at least, the right feeling wasn't there.
Agree! I am currently living in Ft. Mill, SC (suburb of Charlotte) and I cannot wait till I can move to St. Louis. I just have to be able to find a job in my field. I was telling my wife that Charlotte is almost void of historic architecture and culture. It is a city of transplants that seem mostly bored with their lives.
We do have some museums here, but it pales in comparison with what is available in St. Louis.
As far as the KC-STL rivaly goes, I never really experienced anything like that when I lived in the STL area. The thing I am most jealous about KC is they have a MLS team and soccer specific stadium. I can only hope one day STL gets a chance to do the same.
So here is my breakdown of the two – fundamentally different due to separate histories, each valid in their own way, but maybe not understood by others – This is the physical breakdown
St. Louis
Street layout –
St Louis is a beautiful mess damaged by urban highways, chaos reigns in its best possible form in the historic layout, the grid shifts several times responding to the curvature of the river, with farm to market roads slashing through the rotating grid like a laser. These collisions created boundaries, natural shopping districts, and neighborhood identities along ethnic lines, parishes and congregations, your world was six blocks by fourblocks, and that is all it needed to be. The downtown blocks are sized according to the French Colonial grid as mapped out 250 years ago, the Arch grounds were once a Star Fort, a large stonetower on the riverfront fended off British invasion during the revolution, and Lafayette Park was a militia parade ground. Of course there has been considerable damage to all of this, still its remarkable how it survives given the prevailing attitudes of post war America
The grid is highly permeable, even given the block morphology and shifting orientation, this gives way to its urban form. Corners are reserves for storefronts, predating Euclidian zoning, there were dozens of neighborhood centers (many are reawakening, ideal for an emerging more independent entrepreneur system) it was a city built for you to live in not just predating cars, but predating public transport and street cars, as stated earlier everything you needed was a short walk to the corner, just like the country you came from. Parks are deliberately planned so no home would be further than a quarter mile walk from one, this practice was initiated in themid 1800’s and faithfully executed to the completion of the city’s build out in the 1960’s
Architecture -
And come they did, while the French were the first settlers and gave us street names and some early templates for block and architectural development, St Louis was built by immigrants , Germans,Italians, Poles, Czechs, Greeks, Irish, Slovaks, English, Spaniards, Swedeseven an early Chinatown, in 1860, half of the cities 160,000 residents were foreign born. They brought their heritage, religion, music, social societies and, maybe most importantly because it’s the physical evidence that still exists, their building abilities and traditions.
There are parts of St. Louis that could be mistaken for the suburbs of Frankfurt or Berlin, or the quite corners of London’s West End, Lafayette Square would be comfortable in a Parisian Arrondissement. There are alot of examples of German Fasching brickwork, rare in the US. The detail of delight and beauty built into the most ordinary buildings, row homes that at first glance that look the same that reveal different patterns like snowflakes. Rows of homes built to the side walk (or very small yard), keys (passages between buildings) that lead to alleys and carriage houses, and no curb cuts St. Louis built alleys till the 1950’s. Ornate buildings and local monuments, 3 story homes, flats, town homes, stained glass windows, chimney pots, transoms, clerestories, high nave churches, Neo Gothic, Federal, Romanesque, Flemish roofs - a tapestry of mixed income and mixed use where the ordinary was celebrated.
KC
Street layout –
As stated KC is the American machine a mostly regimented grid iron marching north to south seemingly on to infinitely (I found myself on like 207th street visiting a client on one occasion) The grid is punctuated by grand boulevards. KC embraced transport and the car early. They streets were built with the intent of celebrating movement, enjoying the ride, and this is still the case along Ward Parkway, Troost, Paseo and parts of Main. Driving down these streets is like rolling through a sea with layers of the city washing over you like waves. Moving north to south can be like a trip in time as the city rises and lowers in scale from downtown to the Plaza, lawns are big; fountains seem to pop up everywhere the median becomes a garden that transitions to public space that morphs into a water feature then public art. The space feels open and large as table setting for the architecture that dots it. This is the American dream built out- movement, space and efficiency
There are alleys in the older parts, but KC was built to celebrate movement – curb cuts and drive ways are more liberally used, garages are attached or located in proximity to the buildings, parking is intergraded into neighborhoods. When the grid softens away from the thoroughfares the streets take on a Garden City quality (often mistaken for City Beautiful). Gentle curves, center islands and chevrons, Moorish columns and axis terminations. The city flows between all of these things, it’s comfortable.
Architecture-
The buildings refelect the American machine – heavy influence of Craftsman and Art Deco – Styles that are not purely American but definitely perfected here. Shirtwaists, 4 Squares, frame bungalows, heavy on wood detailing, stone as an accent, lawns, front curb cuts and driveways, stone retaining walls, large porches. Often not as highly detailed; as the strength of Craftsman movement was the beauty of simple honest materials. The Art Deco movement is reflected in the high rises of downtown and smaller commercial buildings in midtown, Brookside has its Tudors and that great commercial district that weaves into the neighborhood in a relaxed deliberate fashion.
The Plaza is completely unique in concept, it actually looks and feels more like Spanish Colonial than its model Saville – Though theTorre and some of the dome entries are pretty much a copies, the streets and detailing on the buildings is more reminiscent of what the Spanish built in the new world, its architect, Delk, was known for Spanish Colonial, which was a style that had been popularized in So Cal in th early 1900’s. The wide streets and sweeping vistas add to the open airy feel of the city in general and provide a natural transition point to the suburbs that lie to the south and west. To me the Plaza actually adds to the “New World” feeling of KC rather than harkening back to the old. Its streets are wide for the scale of the buildings, and, at its heart it’s a pure retail district with well integrated parking, which is an American concept, invented right there in fact, by JC Nichols.
As I stated in the previous post – 2 different places, differentlooks, feels and strengths appreciate them for what they are, both are unique in this country where sameness is taking over.
Last edited by Old Trafford; 06-02-2014 at 10:02 PM..
KC is a mix of everything. Someone coming from E only sees the W elements. Someone coming from W thinks KC is more E. Ditto for those coming from N/S. STL is truly more old world, KC has more 'new economy' feel to it but is influenced by all corners of US and in between.
Now if KC/STL could just work together and squash MO state politics from returning to the dark ages.
BTW, bebop and swing mostly started out of KC. You know, Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, Count Bassie, etc - long before Miles. The Aaron Copeland reference is kind of a cheap shot yet youse guys are claiming there is no attitude.
Relax
Aaron Copeland was meant as compliment, and his work sits in my collection with Bird and Miles, Copeland's Rodeo is an American classic as is KC.
Sure everyone wants to beat their opponent, but in terms of some big hatred of STL and the Cards, no. I have seen plenty of anti-Cubs shirts for sale in STL, but I have never seen an anti-Cards shirt in Chicago.
You must not be looking, there are tons of snarky cardinal shirts, most referencing improper things about Molina, in the past it was Pujols.
best friend from High School lives in Wrigleyville, 2 good friends from college live in Lincoln Park, if you hang out there long enough you realize there are 2 distinct types of Cub fans -
Trixies and Chads who migrate to the North side from all over the Midwest, 2 years ago they were cheering for Iowa or Michigan State and now they pounding beers at the Cubby Bear or Murphy's and cheering for the Cubs, they have no clue of the history or even winning, they are there for the beer, it is largest beer garden in the US - baseball is a sideshow. In 5 years they will move to Naperville or back to Minnesota or Texas and their Cub fandom will be left behind on the beer stained streets of Wrigleyville.
Ask them about Ernie Banks, its my favorite question.
The hard core Cubs fans often don't live in the neighborhood anymore, forced to the less glamorous North West suburbs, these fans genuinely dislike the Cardinals (and White Sox) but they are good baseball fans.
Making my yearly trip to the ivy covered burial ground in July
Aaron Copeland was meant as compliment, and his work sits in my collection with Bird and Miles, Copeland's Rodeo is an American classic as is KC.
Ah, it came across as a cutesy Americana 'compliment' at first given KC's history was a little more colorful than that, especially during KC's jazz and Prohibition years - or openly ignoring Prohibition that is. Was amusing when someone brought up how Miles STL is when his influence was earlier KC jazz.
So here is my breakdown of the two – fundamentally different due to separate histories, each valid in their own way, but maybe not understood by others – This is the physical breakdown
[font=Times New Roman]
St. Louis
Street layout –
St Louis is a beautiful mess damaged by urban highways, chaos reigns in its best possible form in the historic layout, the grid shifts several times responding to the curvature of the river, with farm to market roads slashing through the rotating grid like a laser. These collisions created boundaries, natural shopping districts, and neighborhood identities along ethnic lines, parishes and congregations, your world was six blocks by fourblocks, and that is all it needed to be. The downtown blocks are sized according to the French Colonial grid as mapped out 250 years ago, the Arch grounds were once a Star Fort, a large stonetower on the riverfront fended off British invasion during the revolution, and Lafayette Park was a militia parade ground. Of course there has been considerable damage to all of this, still its remarkable how it survives given the prevailing attitudes of post war America
I like this analysis. I think it makes sense. It's always seemed to me that St. Louis is made up of lots of "nooks and crannies" that you have to stumble upon to know they're there. This is especially true in places where they've intentionally blocked off the street grid to keep ingress/egress to a minimum--places like Shaw, the CWE, and the Grove. It's not really designed to wash over you. You have to explore!
Ah, it came across as a cutesy Americana 'compliment' at first given KC's history was a little more colorful than that, especially during KC's jazz and Prohibition years - or openly ignoring Prohibition that is. Was amusing when someone brought up how Miles STL is when his influence was earlier KC jazz.
I know Miles played with all the KC guys in New York before going off the beaten path - would have loved to see that scene about 1950 - My dad saw Bird play one of the ballrooms here in town about 1951 or 52 -Hard to believe guys like that played smaller rooms as well as big halls
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
