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View Poll Results: Which do you think is most true? (pick more than one)
The officer did not commit murder, he was in imminent danger. 84 62.69%
Police are guilty of murder and we have the RIGHT to be in the streets! 12 8.96%
In light of the volitility, a curfew is understandable. 47 35.07%
Police should wear body cameras at all times. 74 55.22%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-11-2014, 08:45 PM
 
111 posts, read 160,585 times
Reputation: 342

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn10am View Post
I'm sorry, but it's just kinda hard to take these people seriously when they behave like this. If a white person had struggled with a police officer for his gun and then got shot multiple times most people would have said, "what an idiot. He had it coming. Darwin awards." But when it's a black person all of a sudden that means it's indicative of racism and police brutality? And then that gives the community an excuse to riot, loot, and burn as they please? And now they're opportunistically attacking the Galleria Mall!?

Give me a break.
Exactly...Anyone who grabs a cops gun deserves to be shot. And there is NO excuse for looting/stealing and acting like an uncivilized animal. One ironic note is that many of these people lashing out at the "White Man" are probably on welfare, food stamps, section 8 that's primarly funded by the "White Man".
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:45 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
1,221 posts, read 2,447,014 times
Reputation: 791
No, but the rioters also don't know that that's NOT what happened. But by all means, destroy a community that was showing signs of rebirth on a hunch. Great idea.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:47 PM
 
Location: StlNoco Mo, where the woodbine twineth
8,317 posts, read 5,944,540 times
Reputation: 12153
More gunshots and teargas in Ferguson now.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:55 PM
 
251 posts, read 301,672 times
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I'm following this on social media. So surreal, it looks like apartheid south africa.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,483 posts, read 4,604,787 times
Reputation: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn10am View Post
I'm sorry, but it's just kinda hard to take these people seriously when they behave like this. If a white person had struggled with a police officer for his gun and then got shot multiple times most people would have said, "what an idiot. He had it coming. Darwin awards." But when it's a black person all of a sudden that means it's indicative of racism and police brutality? And then that gives the community an excuse to riot, loot, and burn as they please? And now they're opportunistically attacking the Galleria Mall!?

Give me a break.
From a rational perspective, you're quite right. But don't forget that stuff like this is not really based in rational thinking, and the mentality or culture behind it is reinforced by generations of segregation and substandard education (schools and perhaps parenting) in St. Louis and elsewhere. Most of the rioters and looters live on the edge of society, just as their parents, grandparents, and other ancestors in the U.S. have lived. In many ways, though the rioting and looting has opportunistic benefit for many of the participating people, it's also a form of protest. Economically and culturally, blacks as a group have not kept pace with the material gains of whites as a group. Things like Manifest Destiny, "From Rags to Riches," and the Protestant Ethic are not really a part of their heritage, their family legends.

Many of these people live in multidimensional poverty, and have done so for generations-- what institutions should they have to revere, when institutions have pretty much failed them? what respect for property should they have, when most are too poor to own and maintain property? If the incident had happened to a white person, maybe what you said ("what an idiot", etc.) would be true, but that's probably because whites have not had the same kind of ghettoized experience over decades (centuries), locked into the same kind of cultural bubble generation after generation. Many whites are imbued with ideas of "upward mobility" and "assimilation into mainstream culture"--ideas that just aren't practicable for many blacks. It would be nice to think that these ideals of ascent and integration can reach them somehow, but for the most part, they don't seem to.

Unfortunately, these incidents will only reinforce segregation as whites sort themselves away from the blacks even more, and as the blacks continue the descent into even more segregated bubbles of poverty and disenfranchisement. Like Milwaukee, where I live, St. Louis is one of the most segregated metros in the U.S. The divide does not mean the segregated groups lead parallel lives-- on the contrary, the various communities of whites have developed in a way totally out of sync with the communities of blacks. They are truly different worlds, and it's hard for people from the one side to fathom the experience of the people from the other side. This has made true integration really difficult, if not impossible. And no, this is not to say that the looting and such should be "excused," but it is important to see these acts from perspectives other than the legalistic. These riots reflect a huge cultural disconnect between large groups of people--the blacks are, in a way, trying to tell America something, but are we willing to listen?
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:31 AM
 
1,441 posts, read 1,582,137 times
Reputation: 1245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
From a rational perspective, you're quite right. But don't forget that stuff like this is not really based in rational thinking, and the mentality or culture behind it is reinforced by generations of segregation and substandard education (schools and perhaps parenting) in St. Louis and elsewhere. Most of the rioters and looters live on the edge of society, just as their parents, grandparents, and other ancestors in the U.S. have lived. In many ways, though the rioting and looting has opportunistic benefit for many of the participating people, it's also a form of protest. Economically and culturally, blacks as a group have not kept pace with the material gains of whites as a group. Things like Manifest Destiny, "From Rags to Riches," and the Protestant Ethic are not really a part of their heritage, their family legends.

Many of these people live in multidimensional poverty, and have done so for generations-- what institutions should they have to revere, when institutions have pretty much failed them? what respect for property should they have, when most are too poor to own and maintain property? If the incident had happened to a white person, maybe what you said ("what an idiot", etc.) would be true, but that's probably because whites have not had the same kind of ghettoized experience over decades (centuries), locked into the same kind of cultural bubble generation after generation. Many whites are imbued with ideas of "upward mobility" and "assimilation into mainstream culture"--ideas that just aren't practicable for many blacks. It would be nice to think that these ideals of ascent and integration can reach them somehow, but for the most part, they don't seem to.

Unfortunately, these incidents will only reinforce segregation as whites sort themselves away from the blacks even more, and as the blacks continue the descent into even more segregated bubbles of poverty and disenfranchisement. Like Milwaukee, where I live, St. Louis is one of the most segregated metros in the U.S. The divide does not mean the segregated groups lead parallel lives-- on the contrary, the various communities of whites have developed in a way totally out of sync with the communities of blacks. They are truly different worlds, and it's hard for people from the one side to fathom the experience of the people from the other side. This has made true integration really difficult, if not impossible. And no, this is not to say that the looting and such should be "excused," but it is important to see these acts from perspectives other than the legalistic. These riots reflect a huge cultural disconnect between large groups of people--the blacks are, in a way, trying to tell America something, but are we willing to listen?
While i understand your point- there are also "whites" that immigrated to this country from nothing to escape persecution (or just hoped to have a better life) and they worked menial jobs, were looked down on and were degraded as well. But the majority of these people picked themselves up by their "bootstraps" and worked hard,and saved to provide themselves and their children with a better life. Then there are others who decide that their problems are someone else's fault, and deserve better while not trying to provide it for themselves. Do you know how many minority scholarships there are? It's crazy. in 2014 there is no reason for anyone to be placing the race card.
Many people enter the military for structure when it's not provided at home; or just for a steady job. I think the main point here is that there is not a lot of respect for authority going on which just compounds the situation. Respect doesn't come from money- it is taught from your parents. T
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:28 AM
 
663 posts, read 924,332 times
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What's funny is a lot of the looters aren't even from Ferguson and pretty much all of the ones arrested have EXTENSIVE criminal backgrounds. A black lady on the news said, "We have to get up and go to our jobs in the morning and they burnt it down" (don't have the exact quote). So true, some hard working people are going to get punished.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Bay View, Milwaukee
2,483 posts, read 4,604,787 times
Reputation: 3389
Quote:
Originally Posted by jribe View Post
While i understand your point- there are also "whites" that immigrated to this country from nothing to escape persecution (or just hoped to have a better life) and they worked menial jobs, were looked down on and were degraded as well. But the majority of these people picked themselves up by their "bootstraps" and worked hard,and saved to provide themselves and their children with a better life.

This is true, though white and Asian immigrants usually have voluntarily chosen to come here, many entered into pre-existing support networks/family structures, and in the case of whites, assimilation was easy after a while. Blacks have not had this experience in the U.S.

Quote:
Then there are others who decide that their problems are someone else's fault, and deserve better while not trying to provide it for themselves. Do you know how many minority scholarships there are?
Yes, but do you know how few blacks even make it to the point where scholarships mean anything? The fact that you think an abundance of scholarships somehow levels the playing field only reflects the disconnect between races in this country. Many blacks can and do "pull themselves by their bootstraps" and so on, but a huge number don't even have the resources (cultural and economic) for that. It's hard for middle-class--even lower middle-class-- white people to believe, but that's part of the white bubble. Somehow many blacks have not become part of mainstream America because America never really wanted them as equals, and the efforts made to level the playing field have been piecemeal.

Quote:
It's crazy. in 2014 there is no reason for anyone to be placing the race card.
It's 2014 for you and me, but for many blacks, it's still maybe the 1950s, or in some areas, even earlier. As if all these blacks were sitting around their Starbucks in their breakfast nooks, talking about when they'll next "pull out the race card" because it's so convenient.... No. Whites don't know what it's like to be black. It's something people don't want to hear, but being black in the U.S. is a daily encounter with discrimination at all levels-- chronic unemployment, all levels of social rejection, and moral judgments from more fortunate people who do not want to live near them or work with them.


Quote:
Many people enter the military for structure when it's not provided at home; or just for a steady job. I think the main point here is that there is not a lot of respect for authority going on which just compounds the situation. Respect doesn't come from money- it is taught from your parents. T
I generally agree with this. And it must be said that most poor and disenfranchised blacks actually do respect authority, respect family and community, etc. But there is often a chronic, historical undercurrent in these communities that redefines what these terms mean. Gangs are popular, not because they are groups of anarchic outlaws, but because they are authority support structures that command respect. The blacks who participate clearly have the will and ability to be loyal, to obey, to work hard, to be selfless, etc. But not so much with mainstream institutions. The mainstream has not sold itself very well to these folks.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:46 AM
 
2,502 posts, read 1,894,811 times
Reputation: 3437
Well this is not the kind of advertising you want to attract business to open up and provide jobs. Good luck with that.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:48 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,305 posts, read 5,982,379 times
Reputation: 4350
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbyBobble View Post
What's funny is a lot of the looters aren't even from Ferguson and pretty much all of the ones arrested have EXTENSIVE criminal backgrounds. A black lady on the news said, "We have to get up and go to our jobs in the morning and they burnt it down" (don't have the exact quote). So true, some hard working people are going to get punished.
That's not surprising though. Ferguson isn't on an island. I understand a lot of the current black Ferguson residents left north city to escape the crime, poverty and poor schools (i.e. black flight).

Last night we also had an incident at the Galleria Mall and reportedly an actual or attempted looting in South City. People have cars and other means of travel.
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