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View Poll Results: Which do you think is most true? (pick more than one)
The officer did not commit murder, he was in imminent danger. 84 62.69%
Police are guilty of murder and we have the RIGHT to be in the streets! 12 8.96%
In light of the volitility, a curfew is understandable. 47 35.07%
Police should wear body cameras at all times. 74 55.22%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:50 AM
 
16,434 posts, read 20,175,665 times
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Shoot on sight should be the rule for looters. It used to be.
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Old 08-12-2014, 08:57 AM
 
Location: StlNoco Mo, where the woodbine twineth
8,289 posts, read 5,896,391 times
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The kid that swiped the gumball machine posted it on facebook. He had it cracked open already, coins and gumballs were spread out all over the floor. He'll do some time for that little crime, if not in jail then in the dentist office.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:31 AM
 
6,052 posts, read 6,875,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn10am View Post
No, but the rioters also don't know that that's NOT what happened. But by all means, destroy a community that was showing signs of rebirth on a hunch. Great idea.
I agree it's dumb to riot and destroy a community. Especially since many don't live there.

The reason for the "protest" not rioters is there is distrust in the St. Louis County law enforcement. When Belmar held the press conference and did not disclose the full truth when the case is already messy people became outraged.

Given situations throughout the country in New York, Georgia, California and now in Missouri there is only so much tolerance people are going to have. This seems to be impacting young black and latino men moreso than other demographics.

To not understand that this case has to be handled in the right way so the truth will be revealed and proper charges filed can't be over emphasized.

I'm not calling you or anyone on here a racist. I am writing before you gain confidence in what Belmar stated on Sunday give it time and let the truth come out.
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:56 AM
 
Location: rural North Carolina
272 posts, read 715,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
From a rational perspective, you're quite right. But don't forget that stuff like this is not really based in rational thinking, and the mentality or culture behind it is reinforced by generations of segregation and substandard education (schools and perhaps parenting) in St. Louis and elsewhere. Most of the rioters and looters live on the edge of society, just as their parents, grandparents, and other ancestors in the U.S. have lived. In many ways, though the rioting and looting has opportunistic benefit for many of the participating people, it's also a form of protest. Economically and culturally, blacks as a group have not kept pace with the material gains of whites as a group. Things like Manifest Destiny, "From Rags to Riches," and the Protestant Ethic are not really a part of their heritage, their family legends.
I spent a year living in Africa among people subsisting on about a dollar a day. They had their own work ethic and heritage, and knew that the key to improving their lot was education. I have seen parents bankrupt themselves in order to send their children to school, pay for their uniforms and books, and make sure they would lead better lives. I've also seen families send their kids out to beg instead of to school while the parents slept around, drank and did drugs. This was in small villages on the shore of Lake Tanganyika in Tanzania.

These two groups came from the same tribe and had the same skin color, yet their cultures were completely different. Why was one driven for a better life and the other not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
Many of these people live in multidimensional poverty, and have done so for generations-- what institutions should they have to revere, when institutions have pretty much failed them? what respect for property should they have, when most are too poor to own and maintain property?
The poverty you see on the streets of Arusha Tanzania or in Nairobi Kenya is nothing comparable to American poverty. I live in one of the poorest counties of my state and many of my poor neighbors have new $40k pickup trucks in front of their single-wides with DirecTV satellite dishes on the roof. Meanwhile my car is 15 years old and has 200k miles on it.

Your reliance on an institution assumes that people are too stupid to know what's best for them.
I don't believe this. These people aren't stupid. Their priorities are different than mine - I'd rather have a nice house and a junker car - but they are just as intelligent as I am; They've just chosen different paths. Like the Africans I lived with some chose the harder path of working for a better future while the others expected to be taken care of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
Many whites are imbued with ideas of "upward mobility" and "assimilation into mainstream culture"--ideas that just aren't practicable for many blacks. It would be nice to think that these ideals of ascent and integration can reach them somehow, but for the most part, they don't seem to.
And many whites aren't. Most of the poor living in my county are whites. This also doesn't explain why Africans from the Caribbean and Africa have thrived as immigrants, or why Indians and other Asians have surpassed African-Americans in wealth. Today Hispanics are about to do the same. What it does tell me is that the African-American culture that glorifies thuggery, misogyny, racism, and denigrates education and hard work. Contrary to what PC thinking states, all cultures are not equal and I'd question the health of modern African-American culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
And no, this is not to say that the looting and such should be "excused," but it is important to see these acts from perspectives other than the legalistic. These riots reflect a huge cultural disconnect between large groups of people--the blacks are, in a way, trying to tell America something, but are we willing to listen?
Who is "we"? And what are we supposed to learn from this? What does burning down a shoe store or terrorizing motorists by jumping on their cars say to your neighbors?

I'm not claiming to have any answers and I'm deeply suspicious of those who do. These are complex problems and as such defy easy solutions.
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:30 AM
 
2,496 posts, read 1,882,680 times
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We have people everyday who have hopped a fence and can't speak English, yet in a few years open up their own business. If you stand around waiting for everyone else to make your life easier, good luck. There are lots of other minorities in this country that don't have time to make excuses generation after generation. They just do it. Perhaps instead of doing what doesn't seem to work. How about checking out the brown and yellow brothers and sisters and see what does work.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:33 PM
 
663 posts, read 921,633 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjtinmemphis View Post
I agree it's dumb to riot and destroy a community. Especially since many don't live there.

The reason for the "protest" not rioters is there is distrust in the St. Louis County law enforcement. When Belmar held the press conference and did not disclose the full truth when the case is already messy people became outraged.

Given situations throughout the country in New York, Georgia, California and now in Missouri there is only so much tolerance people are going to have. This seems to be impacting young black and latino men moreso than other demographics.

To not understand that this case has to be handled in the right way so the truth will be revealed and proper charges filed can't be over emphasized.

I'm not calling you or anyone on here a racist. I am writing before you gain confidence in what Belmar stated on Sunday give it time and let the truth come out.
I can see your point with this. As an African-American, I can see many different sides.

On one hand (and I'm talking about the protests, NOT the looters) it's frustrating when the law disproportionately targets a black man. I'm college-educated and I get discriminated against. I have to wear my skin everyday and think about it everyday. It would be great not to. But I know that I'll be followed if I shop in Frontenac...even though I drive a Mercedes. I know that I'll get passed over certain position because of my race.

For many people, it's hard to to trust a system that has ALWAYS worked against them. That's when people stop caring. If allegedly an upcoming college student who's a ''gentle giant'' can get killed ''not doing anything" then some people would rather do something because at least they'd have the satisfaction of disobedience.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:37 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,300 posts, read 5,960,142 times
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Originally Posted by satchseven View Post
you do not have to wear sheets to have the same mentality and you know it
So, black residents cleaning up the mess at the QT were yelled at by other blacks for helping the white man.

Volunteers Clean Up at Ferguson QuikTrip, Get Yelled At for "Helping the White Man" | Riverfront Times

Do you have any sage observations about this particular mentality?
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
8,079 posts, read 8,586,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empidonax View Post
This is true, though white and Asian immigrants usually have voluntarily chosen to come here, many entered into pre-existing support networks/family structures, and in the case of whites, assimilation was easy after a while. Blacks have not had this experience in the U.S.



Yes, but do you know how few blacks even make it to the point where scholarships mean anything? The fact that you think an abundance of scholarships somehow levels the playing field only reflects the disconnect between races in this country. Many blacks can and do "pull themselves by their bootstraps" and so on, but a huge number don't even have the resources (cultural and economic) for that. It's hard for middle-class--even lower middle-class-- white people to believe, but that's part of the white bubble. Somehow many blacks have not become part of mainstream America because America never really wanted them as equals, and the efforts made to level the playing field have been piecemeal.



It's 2014 for you and me, but for many blacks, it's still maybe the 1950s, or in some areas, even earlier. As if all these blacks were sitting around their Starbucks in their breakfast nooks, talking about when they'll next "pull out the race card" because it's so convenient.... No. Whites don't know what it's like to be black. It's something people don't want to hear, but being black in the U.S. is a daily encounter with discrimination at all levels-- chronic unemployment, all levels of social rejection, and moral judgments from more fortunate people who do not want to live near them or work with them.




I generally agree with this. And it must be said that most poor and disenfranchised blacks actually do respect authority, respect family and community, etc. But there is often a chronic, historical undercurrent in these communities that redefines what these terms mean. Gangs are popular, not because they are groups of anarchic outlaws, but because they are authority support structures that command respect. The blacks who participate clearly have the will and ability to be loyal, to obey, to work hard, to be selfless, etc. But not so much with mainstream institutions. The mainstream has not sold itself very well to these folks.

I profoundly disagree with much of what is in this post. Statements like "whites don't know what its like to be black", "daily encounter with discrimination at all levels"," America never wanted them as equals" all reek of a victim mentality that is like an epidemic in these extreme low income minority neighborhoods. This line of thinking gives people in these "ghettos" an excuse for why their neighborhoods look like they do, why so many drugs are there, crimes etc. Who is always to blame for these places??? of course white people are. I don't accept it, not one bit of it. I work with many black people, they do not live in ghettos, they have nice cars, they pick up the same pay check I do. They raise their kids and go to church. They do not appear second class or discriminated on in any way, nor do they normally talk about being discriminated against. They only comment on race issues when incidents like this make the news. Most black people do not live in ghettos, but listening to these people on the internet would lead you to believe that black people are still discriminated against like it is 1950. Most Americans white or black simply want this racial nonsense put in the past. All this being said it really does look like this kid is a victim here, but why are the protesters steeling wheels and looting stores? Why burn local businesses??? Do they not realize that any local police department is controlled by the politicians they put into office, and given that reality they can change their local government any time they want to, including the police department. It is after all their police department.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:08 PM
 
2,393 posts, read 1,330,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrviking View Post
We have people everyday who have hopped a fence and can't speak English, yet in a few years open up their own business. If you stand around waiting for everyone else to make your life easier, good luck. There are lots of other minorities in this country that don't have time to make excuses generation after generation. They just do it. Perhaps instead of doing what doesn't seem to work. How about checking out the brown and yellow brothers and sisters and see what does work.
The so called "brown" people still have a high poverty rate.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:10 PM
 
2,393 posts, read 1,330,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jskirwin View Post


And many whites aren't. Most of the poor living in my county are whites. This also doesn't explain why Africans from the Caribbean and Africa have thrived as immigrants, or why Indians and other Asians have surpassed African-Americans in wealth. Today Hispanics are about to do the same. What it does tell me is that the African-American culture that glorifies thuggery, misogyny, racism, and denigrates education and hard work. Contrary to what PC thinking states, all cultures are not equal and I'd question the health of modern African-American culture.

The African American culture does not "glorify' any of these things.

That is what you have chosen to believe.
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