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This whole thing about which race is the most racist is really weird, idiotic, pointless, and divisive. There is no point to the argument. People have been giving examples of black people spewing racial slurs and being violent to them in St. Louis but I could also give examples of white people being violent to non-white people in MN. I could also give examples of violence of minorties, but the issue in St. Cloud, MN of whites having tensions with the Somali college students is bad. In fact, it can be bad all over MN. I've heard Somalis being called "*******" "*********" and "walking bedsheets". The term, "Ew, what smells like Somali?" is also popular in MN whenever someone smells something they do not like. The racial tension the Somalis experience from the white people in MN could equal the racial tension this Asian dude experienced from black people in St. Louis, but it goes a step further. Some Somali students to St. Cloud were killed a few years back when they were attending the local university. All seven of them got their throats slit. It was nasty business, and now most Somalis are skeptical about getting their education at St. Cloud.
So I guess racism exists in everyone but not more so in one ethnicity than any other.
I think Somalis get the worst experiance because they are Blacks, Muslims and Immigrants. The three most discriminated against groups. Racism and hatred for others should have no place in any decent place.
I think Somalis get the worst experiance because they are Blacks, Muslims and Immigrants. The three most discriminated against groups. Racism and hatred for others should have no place in any decent place.
I agree with you on the point about racism and hatred have no place in any decent society. What I dont like is the fact that many Somalis still continue the practice of female genital mutilation here in this country.
I have a friend that is an OB/GYN, she has told some really heartbreaking stories about this appalling practice. My point? Education. Its the key to understanding and enlightenment.
I agree with you on the point about racism and hatred have no place in any decent society. What I dont like is the fact that many Somalis still continue the practice of female genital mutilation here in this country.
I have a friend that is an OB/GYN, she has told some really heartbreaking stories about this appalling practice. My point? Education. Its the key to understanding and enlightenment.
FGM is nothing uniquely Somali. It is something that is practiced throughout the Asia and Africa. I don't know of any Somalis who practice FGM in America, for one the practice is illegal here. And I disagree that it is because of ignorance people practice FGM, both educated and non-educated Africans practice FGM across all religious denominations. It is not easy letting go part of your culture. Some of the greatest critics of FGM in the world are Somalis. Waris Derie the Somali supermodel recently won France's most prestigious Award The Legion Of Honor for her work against FGM.
I am well aware that FMG is not unique to Somalis, it seems rather disingenuous to point out that that FMG is illegal here, though.
Rather along the same lines as " We have always done it this way, so it must be ok"????? No, its not ok, and yes, FMG is practiced here. My OB/GYN friend has patched up some rather tragic results of this "cultural" practice right here in Central Florida, and has collegues across the country telling the same stories.
I have educated Somali clients that greatly decry the practice, so I rather doubt that it is lack of education, and that is out of their mouths, not mine.
This has been a tough one to keep open for discussion folks so let's please not get too far from the original concept of this thread. Not baggin' on anyone, I'm just trying to be sure we don't wander too far away from the original concept of the thread. We can always use the DM feature to have an off topic chat if need be. Thanks everyone
Wow. Haven't visited this thread in a long time. It's really gotten kind'a crazy, huh? I'd never thought I'd say this, but DaJammer has displayed remarkable restraint in not shutting it down.
But I'm glad he (she?) hasn't.
Regarding the whole "who's more racist?" discussion: it might be true that you see slightly more overt racism coming from the black community these days. But, as one poster pointed out, perhaps it would be more accurate to recognize some of this "racism" as "resentment". Regardless, I don't think you can look at racism as a whole (and I can see some of you rolling your eyes already) without considering the backdrop of history.
No, most white St. Louisans of my generation did not participate in lynchings, beatings, cross-burnings against african americans. But within my lifetime, I did live in a white neighborhood (Dogtown) where at least half of the populace referred to blacks as "n******" without giving it a second thought. Where black people were assumed to be violent, lazy, stupid, dishonest, and just plain suspect on many levels. When a black family - no matter how "decent" - moved into a neighborhood it was generally assumed they would ruin the area.
Within my lifetime, I heard fellow white St. Louisan's express surprise when an african american kept a nice house, held a public office, attained an advanced degree or had a high paying job. Upon seeing a nicely dressed african american, I've heard white St. Louisan's wonder aloud if they were taking food out of their children's mouths to pay for those clothes.
The racist remarks freely made within my earshot growing up ranged from the merely insipid ("They're so clean!") to the ugly and dangerous ("Let's go on a n*****hunt).
This isn't ancient history. I'm middle-aged and it happened in my lifetime. As late as the 70's I remember a news report about a black family moving into one of the north county municipalities and having bricks repeatedly thrown through their windows and onto their porch. I remember the story vividly. These weren't isolated bricks (as if that wasn't enough) it was a barrage.
I remember a my parents shaking their heads and sympathizing for the black family, but I don't remember any communal outrage - from politicians, from church or community leaders - I don't remember anyone taking action.
Now, I understand that we'd like to think, as one poster suggested, that all this pretty much stopped since the sixties. And, granted, things have improved tremendously. But just as this white boy is now middle-aged and remembers all too well the racial contempt of many whites toward blacks, think of all the black men and women who grew up at the same time. Think of how many times more potent their memories must be of the contempt, the fear and sheer hatred they felt emanating from much of the white community. Now try and imagine how that might color your world view.
Things have gotten better. Many of the barriers and glass ceilings that existed for african americans have fallen. When I was a kid there were only a few tentatively integrated neighborhoods in St. Louis. There are more now. We have grown much more comfortable and less afraid of each other. But there is still such a long way to go.
Blacks have come much closer to acheiving economic and social parity with whites, but the gap is still substantial. Do we think it's just a coincidence that blacks are much more likely to live in poverty, go to bad schools, grow up in violent and impoverished neighborhoods than whites? Did that just happen? Do we really believe it's because they just aren't trying hard enough? Or might it have something to do with our history? With the biases that were ingrained in our society for centuries?
Someone on the list (WestCoDude?) suggests that if blacks only deal with illegitimacy, ignorance, poverty, gangs and bad schools, they'll do just fine.
Do I even have to point out the flaws in that logic?
If most of us were born into ignorance, poverty, violence, bad schools, illegitimacy we'd have problems too! Who forced much of the black community into these conditions to begin with? Who did their best to hold them their for decades?
"...too many blacks are too busy fightin' the White Man to go get a job and support their 20 illegitimate kids." This, in itself, is a racist remark. Do we see that?
Am I excusing bad behavior? No. Racism from anyone is stupid, pointless and destructive. Of course many people of all races encounter social, political, and economic hardship. And many people of all races overcome them.
Am I holding white folks feet a little closer to the fire? Yes, I guess so. The reasons are two-fold 1) I'm one of ya and I know how y'all operate 2) we have been in the power position in this country since it's inception. We started the country by enslaving and decimating an indigenous people. We built it in part by enslaving and degrading still another people. (And before you all start, no we personally didn't do these things but people of our race, our heritage, our color and our position in society did). We must take an active role in undoing both those legacies.
^^^^ I never want to blame a whole race for the actions of some. Yes there were whites in the past and present and there are going to be many in the future that dislike or hate people of any race....Same as blacks, latino, & asian. The best way we must deal with this issue is to educate future generations to the problems that bigotry and racism creates. I don't want to look at the situation as a race vs race thing rather than an individual vs individual situation. It's so hard to look at it that way though and since the 60's we've made tremendous progress in this country as far as race is concerned. I honestly believe that people shouldn't be so quick to make race a factor in the smallest disputes but look at people for who they are. As I've said, there's never a reason to blame and generalize millions of people based off the actions of some.
I am in my late 20's, and it could be a generational thing, but I do not remember any time in my life where obvious rascism was a fact of life. Of course, I was not alive in the 60's or 70's. I guess that is why it is more-so of an issue between older whites and blacks, as it makes sense to hold grudges based on your personal history. But in my life, and I feel that in many lives of the other races who are my age or younger, most aspects of race-based hatred and grudge-based rascism just don't exist or hold much everyday weight. However, I am not blind to why an annoying still-existing barrier between races exists in this country and I do agree with alot of what the previous poster (2 posts ago) says. However, with that said, I refuse to accept any personal responsibility for somethuing that I did not (and never would) participate in just because I happen to be white. I obviously have no way of controlling what certain members of my race did before I was born ... or for that matter ... while I am alive.
Hey oscott. I agree. There's been a lot of progress in the last 40 years. I really have seen positive signs that a generation of young people are coming up that see people as individuals first, members of a race a distant second.
My life, and the lives of many people of my generation, have been all about un-learning the racial bias - even among those of us who weren't, strictly speaking, bigots. I didn't really have black friends until I was a teenager. I didn't really start understanding how skewed my view of race was until I was in my 20's.
My parents always taught us that we were all equals regardless of race. They also taught us that bigotry and hatred were wrong. Unfortunately, it was almost impossible to grow up then and not imbibe some sort of racism from the culture - even if it was just the fear of the unknown. Blacks and whites were much more segregated then.
But I also suspect your looking at the issue from the perspective of the middle-class. Thankfully, the black middle-class has grown and continues to grow. But if you were black and growing up in an impoverished neighborhood and all the faces you saw around you were also black, you might have a slightly different perspective.
Lastly, let me clarify, I'm not blaming you or any other white person personally for the injustices of the past. Of course it's not your fault. Of course YOU didn't bring this about. I'm not holding you, or myself, personally responsible for any wrongdoing.
But what I am saying is, that as white people, we still enjoy the advantages brought about by our society's racist past. For all the improvements, much of that legacy continues. And, as beneficiaries of the legacy, I think we do have a responsibility to try and mend the damages that legacy has left behind.
P.S. I bet the 1970's do seem like "ancient history" to you, huh?
Last edited by anduarto; 05-30-2008 at 09:33 AM..
Reason: spelling
But yes, I am looking at the situation from a current middle-class living perspective in which my surroundings typically consist of somewhere around a 65/35 or 70/30 white-black ratio ... when I speak of this generation mostly being devoid of stronger aspects of rascism that used to exist. The little, unspoken barriers are still there unfortunately, but I do not think that any race-based hatred exists anymore ... for the most part.
However, in relation to the other side of the story ... for 3 years, I taught at a 100% black high school located in an impoverished inner-city neighborhood (this was before I moved to STL, by the way) - so I am somewhat familiar with that perspective also and can empathize with a kid who was born into a no-win situation. Even there though, I didn't feel any extreme racist attitudes towards me from the kids or staff, but then again, I guess school isn't exactly real life. Well, I think I was called a cracker two or three times over the 3 years and was told a few times that I didn't understand this or that "because I am white". Nothing too major lol.
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Racism - pure and not so simple
