St Louis -- people, real estate, neighborhoods, etc (St. Louis, Kirkwood: middle-class, sales)

[JSTX2015]

Hi: I recently applied for a very interesting job in St Louis. No idea if things will work out, but in the meantime have been doing some research and have a few observations and questions:

Observations:

- Had an opportunity to visit (primarily downtown) and read through several forum threads. I'm under the impression that people in St Louis seem to generally be polite, helpful, proud of their city with out being obnoxiously prideful/arrogant -- basically a lot of very good things.
- There does seem to be a bit of a complex about St Louis being inferior to cities that are in a different size, economic, geographic category. In a very casual discussion at a pub mentioned a few of the places that I've lived and that I would seriously consider re-locating to St Louis if the job opportunity worked out. Detected a bit of a 'why on earth would you move here' response. Maybe it was just the situation/person I was talking to but felt there might be a bit of an under appreciation for a lot of the positive attributes of St Louis (four seasons - mild winters/summers, affordable housing, diverse economy, big enough metro area to have everything you would realistically need on a day-to-day basis, etc).
- Have traveled extensively throughout the country and think 'inner city' St Louis has some of the most interesting/unique buildings, older houses, neighborhoods that I've ever seen. Unfortunately at lot of this seems to have fallen into disprepair/urban blight.

Are these observations fairly accurate? If not, am very open minded to adapting my perception.

Questions:

- Is there realistically a chance that some of the inner-city neighborhoods with good housing stock will go through revitalization/gentrification in the next 10-20 years or is there little interest/effort to make St Louis city a more liveable place? It seems like quite a few other cities have gone through or are in the process of renewed interest in inner city living.
- Am primarily looking at smaller (2br-1ba), older houses in the Kirkwood neighborhood in the 125-175 range. Have a son going into high school next year so good schools and low crime are paramount for now, but would like to live relatively close to the city as I'm not a big fan of far-flung suburbs / cookie-cutter subdivisions. Prices over the past decade appear to be flat and recent sales seem to be slow and below asking price by 10-15%. Is this observation accurate? If so, are there other comparable areas (Brentwood, Websters Grove, etc) that might appreciate in value more?

Thanks so much for reading my post and I appreciate any feedback

[RisingAurvandil]

Originally Posted by JSTX2015

Hi: I recently applied for a very interesting job in St Louis. No idea if things will work out, but in the meantime have been doing some research and have a few observations and questions:

Observations:

- Had an opportunity to visit (primarily downtown) and read through several forum threads. I'm under the impression that people in St Louis seem to generally be polite, helpful, proud of their city with out being obnoxiously prideful/arrogant -- basically a lot of very good things.
- There does seem to be a bit of a complex about St Louis being inferior to cities that are in a different size, economic, geographic category. In a very casual discussion at a pub mentioned a few of the places that I've lived and that I would seriously consider re-locating to St Louis if the job opportunity worked out. Detected a bit of a 'why on earth would you move here' response. Maybe it was just the situation/person I was talking to but felt there might be a bit of an under appreciation for a lot of the positive attributes of St Louis (four seasons - mild winters/summers, affordable housing, diverse economy, big enough metro area to have everything you would realistically need on a day-to-day basis, etc).
- Have traveled extensively throughout the country and think 'inner city' St Louis has some of the most interesting/unique buildings, older houses, neighborhoods that I've ever seen. Unfortunately at lot of this seems to have fallen into disprepair/urban blight.

Are these observations fairly accurate? If not, am very open minded to adapting my perception.

Those are accurate assessments. This town has a lot of strengths, but also has a large segment that abhors the city. Many of those folks have never lived outside of the area, and thus have no reference to appreciate what they have here. Within the city and inner-ring though, most people seem positive.

Originally Posted by JSTX2015

- Is there realistically a chance that some of the inner-city neighborhoods with good housing stock will go through revitalization/gentrification in the next 10-20 years or is there little interest/effort to make St Louis city a more liveable place? It seems like quite a few other cities have gone through or are in the process of renewed interest in inner city living.

Many neighborhoods are gentrifying. The Tower Grove area, Benton Park, Midtown, Debaliviere and FPSE come to mind. Some never declined, or gentrified decades ago: Dogtown, Soulard, the CWE, and everywhere south of 44 and west of Kingshighway.

A few are experiencing white flight, most notably Dutchtown. The city has a lost a large portion of it's historically dense inner neighborhoods, mostly in the central corridor and north side. Everywhere north of Delmar has been in terminal decline. Mill Creek, Carr Square, Old North, and the old West End (not the Central West End) are long gone. Stay south of Delmar.

Originally Posted by JSTX2015

- Am primarily looking at smaller (2br-1ba), older houses in the Kirkwood neighborhood in the 125-175 range. Have a son going into high school next year so good schools and low crime are paramount for now, but would like to live relatively close to the city as I'm not a big fan of far-flung suburbs / cookie-cutter subdivisions. Prices over the past decade appear to be flat and recent sales seem to be slow and below asking price by 10-15%. Is this observation accurate? If so, are there other comparable areas (Brentwood, Websters Grove, etc) that might appreciate in value more?

You might be able to swing a 1-2 bed for that price. If you go to Kirkwood, avoid the Meacham Park neighborhood. The rest of the town is great, though. The StL housing market has always been relatively stable. We rarely see big booms or big busts. Prices are stable in Kirkwood. For many years, prices rose as upper middle-class families moved in. The law of diminishing returns will likely restrict significant price increases in the future.

A lot of people who have been priced out of Kirkwood/Webster are now relocating in Crestwood, Shrewsbury, Rock Hill, Brentwood, Maplewood, and even Richmond Heights. These areas do vary in character.

[Old Trafford]

Originally Posted by JSTX2015

Hi:

Questions:

- Is there realistically a chance that some of the inner-city neighborhoods with good housing stock will go through revitalization/gentrification in the next 10-20 years or is there little interest/effort to make St Louis city a more liveable place? It seems like quite a few other cities have gone through or are in the process of renewed interest in inner city living.
- Am primarily looking at smaller (2br-1ba), older houses in the Kirkwood neighborhood in the 125-175 range. Have a son going into high school next year so good schools and low crime are paramount for now, but would like to live relatively close to the city as I'm not a big fan of far-flung suburbs / cookie-cutter subdivisions. Prices over the past decade appear to be flat and recent sales seem to be slow and below asking price by 10-15%. Is this observation accurate? If so, are there other comparable areas (Brentwood, Websters Grove, etc) that might appreciate in value more?

Thanks so much for reading my post and I appreciate any feedback

I think your observations are pretty good

on your questions -

There are quite a few neighborhoods undergoing positive and even dramatic transformation -

Tower Groove East and South
Shaw
Benton Park
Forest Park Southeast
Fox Park
Botanical Heights

There are a few that have been just about 100 gentrified -

Soulard
The Central West End
Lafayette Square

As far 125-175 in Kirkwood - that will be tough, but not impossible, Maplewood would be a slam dunk for that price point and is a up and coming neighborhood worth checking out

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by Old Trafford

As far 125-175 in Kirkwood - that will be tough, but not impossible, Maplewood would be a slam dunk for that price point and is a up and coming neighborhood worth checking out

Maybe you wouldn't want to send the kid to Maplewood high school though.

[Old Trafford]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

Maybe you wouldn't want to send the kid to Maplewood high school though.

True - and the same reason for the cheaper prices, my friends in Maplewood send their kid to a parochial school.

Its a small district - I wonder if rising property values will raise test scores there.

[gypsyjudy]

People in St. Louis are very proud of their city. Actually, they like it so much they never leave! I've lived in 7 cities and have never seen people so proud and attached to their city - and their home sports teams.

Agree with the Maplewood comment. I live there, and it is certainly a hot area. Last summer the real estate here sold like crazy. I had some realtors knocking at my door asking if I would be willing to sell because they have clients that only want to live in this area - we're talking professionals like doctors and other white collar professions. (This year I think I am going to just because we will probably be relocating. Sorry outside your price point). I've also heard good things about the schools from a lot of families, though I have no kids in school there. I was talking to a dad who is an engineer, and he LOVES the schools. Another dad was an attorney and had kids at the high school. They both loved the individual attention their kids received. Guess that topic is supjective. St. Louis is very much a Catholic school population (if you can afford it!) Maplewood borders the city, and you get a lot of the convenience of the city without the crime. It is a very eclectic area, so if you like that kind of vibe, it's for you. If not you want limited diversity and things to do you might want to head west to the suburbs. I've known a lot of people who live in the city, and they seem to like it. I wouldn't do it with the crime. Never.

Good luck whatever decision you make. Like I said, I have never been in a city where people just never want to leave. It's truly amazing!