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Old 06-07-2017, 11:01 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,312 posts, read 6,015,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I just did. You added more and I didn't notice until it was too late, hence I put that part of your post in quotes.
Okay, thanks. A very interesting response. Thank you.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:04 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,312 posts, read 6,015,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I'm not here to talk about what they were "considered". I am here for the bottom line. That matters to me more than anything else, period. The fact is, the Confederates were Americans that fired on/declared war against their own country. The CSA was never formally recognized by any nation, especially not the USA. These were U.S. states in rebellion against the USA. They fired AGAINST the USA, they were enemy combatants that technically belonged to the USA, while declaring themselves part of the CSA.

Of course they were welcomed back. Here is the thing. It doesn't change what they did. It does not change anything. What they still did was treasonous. Under normal circumstances, in accordance to the Constitution, a punishment would be in order.

The Confederacy called themselves rebels. Fire against you own country, that is a traitor act. Robert E. Lee swore an oath to this nation. He turned his back on it for the enemy.

I look at the bottom line, period.

And aside from being people who fired against this country, why were the Confederates firing against this country? They wanted secession so bad. Why? Because they feared an end to slavery. This is noted many times in the Articles of Secession. People writing and openly admitting that if the South couldn't keep slaves, then the South was doomed. It didn't matter that Lincoln didn't plan on abolishing slavery. Many people weren't thinking rationally. When the Confederate Constitution was drafted, it was written to protect the right to own slaves. It was explicit about that. The stars and bars of the Confederate flag, William Tappan Thompson came up with that. His words below.



Again, why should we, in 2017, be paying tribute to Confederates?
Why should we pay tribute to anyone pre-civil war who owned slaves, including founding fathers? Why should we pay tribute to Lincoln whose solution was to send freed black slaves back to Africa? Almost everyone historically will come up short when judged by the lens of what is acceptable today.
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:10 PM
 
1,400 posts, read 697,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
But this discussion is about the Confederates and why we shouldn't have Confederate monuments. And that alone. I called them traitors because that is what they are. Wage war against one's own country, that is being a traitor. Flag burning, as despicable as it is, is protected in the Constitution. Waging war against the USA, however, is treason. Leaving the U.S. Army to fight for an enemy combatant (that is what Robert E. Lee did) is a treason offense.

I suspect you only brought up the two groups to deflect from why there is such a disdain for Confederates. If you want to talk about BLM and Antifa, a separate thread would suffice.
At the time of the Civil War secession was not illegal. Not until after the war was it ruled illegal. Slavery was legal per the Constitution. If the North wanted to end slavery as new states were admitted, then what side was not defending the Constitution? And if the North was not defending the Constitution, then were they traitors?
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:17 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,312 posts, read 6,015,134 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Again, why should we, in 2017, be paying tribute to Confederates?
I don't think we should today. I'm just not sure taking down historical monuments are the best answer. Again, I've lived here my whole life and never laid eyes on the deal in Forest Park.

I'm more concerned about what comes next. We have a lot of confederate gave sites around here, memorials to individual soldiers. Do those get dug up? How about their descendents? How about the people who funded the confederate memorial in 1914? They are obviously suspect.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:16 AM
 
208 posts, read 206,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Well, I'm going to enlighten you on something. Democrats are more likely to pander to feminists, LGBT, and Blacks, in that order. Republicans are more likely to pander to White conservatives. In particular, there is an appeal among those who feel like they're being taken over by minorities and immigrants.
Thank you for the enlightenment. Good points. I'll expand on that.

For the past 50+ years, this country has based public policy on the premise that whites and blacks MUST live in the same society. In fact, the cultural zeitgeist that exists today in western societies (Europe and European derived countries), rests on that premise. Europeans and Africans must, at all costs, live in the same society. It has become the supreme moral imperative. The moral imperative above all others.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:07 AM
 
3,731 posts, read 2,707,876 times
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Originally Posted by SouthCitySam View Post
Do you mean examples?
How about data? An "example" of a black guy getting an advantage doesn't prove anything, any more than helium balloons prove gravity is fake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthCitySam View Post
For the past 50+ years, this country has based public policy on the premise that whites and blacks MUST live in the same society. In fact, the cultural zeitgeist that exists today in western societies (Europe and European derived countries), rests on that premise. Europeans and Africans must, at all costs, live in the same society. It has become the supreme moral imperative. The moral imperative above all others.
"Love other people as you love yourself" has been a supreme moral imperative for a lot longer than 50 years. The only new part is considering blacks to be people.

Africans and Europeans living in the same society has also been a thing since longer than the US has existed. It's even mentioned in the Constitution (something about a 3/5ths rule)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1grin_g0 View Post
At the time of the Civil War secession was not illegal. Not until after the war was it ruled illegal.
Secession's legality was not firmly established one way or the other before the war, but shooting at Fort Sumter was definitely illegal.

As a point of clarification, SCOTUS didn't rule it illegal until later, but it's not as though SCOTUS ruled it legal at any time before the war, it simply didn't have the opportunity to comment one way or the other. It's not unusual for SCOTUS to declare something illegal years after the crime occurred; it would be more unusual to declare someone a criminal before they've done anything.

Last edited by FrankMiller; 06-08-2017 at 08:07 AM..
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:47 AM
 
1,400 posts, read 697,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Secession's legality was not firmly established one way or the other before the war, but shooting at Fort Sumter was definitely illegal.
The South had seceded and was no longer subject to the laws of the Union, therefore Fort Sumter was not illegal, but an act of war.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:34 AM
 
58,336 posts, read 50,951,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
Why should we pay tribute to anyone pre-civil war who owned slaves, including founding fathers? Why should we pay tribute to Lincoln whose solution was to send freed black slaves back to Africa? Almost everyone historically will come up short when judged by the lens of what is acceptable today.
Comparing the founding fathers to the Confederates is a a false equivalency argument. The founding fathers owned slaves, yes. However, they did not fight for a cause that was explicitly about keeping slavery. The American Revolution, which help found this country, was not the same as the Confederate fight. The American Revolution had to do with colonies not getting fair representation. Keeping slavery had nothing to do with it. The founding fathers just so happen to own slaves. The Confederacy was explicitly and clearly about keeping and expanding slavery. The cause centered around it. The South wanted to fight against the rest of the country because it so badly wanted to keep slavery. The American Revolution is a noble cause which facilitated the founding of this country. The Confederates nearly ripped this country apart and their cause was a last ditch effort to keep slavery. Major differences here.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:19 PM
 
208 posts, read 206,702 times
Reputation: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
An "example" of a black guy getting an advantage...
I must first correct you. Here's my exact quote: "Blacks in the US are actually the most accommodated group of people in the world." In that regard, we need go no further than the topic of this very thread to find an example. The removal of a monument and flag simply to appease the sensibilities of blacks is an example of this accommodation to which I refer.

Just for fun, I listed a smattering of the myriad of black-centric organizations and groups. I provided links in case you want a good laugh.Quite hilarious. And of course, there are more. I could continue to list links to other such black-centric organizations and groups. You can do your own research, but I'm sure you get the point. These links are included not only for their comedic value but also to demonstrate just how pervasive these accommodations go into every reach of society. Of course, I could get into such things as diversity quotas, the flotilla of affirmative action programs, Orwellian hate speech & hate crime laws, inclusion programs, race-conscious policies in college admissions and corporate hiring, black owned business grants and loans, Evergreen State College, the dumbing down of civil servant tests, so-called "disadvantage" programs, endless disguised subsidies (see "disadvantaged"), African American Studies, Black history month, so-called fair housing laws, EEOC, "social justice" initiatives, block busting, bussing, OJ Simpson, and on and on and on. But the point is proven. Blacks in the US are indeed the most accommodated group of people in the world.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:23 PM
 
3,731 posts, read 2,707,876 times
Reputation: 2968
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthCitySam View Post
I must first correct you. Here's my exact quote: "Blacks in the US are actually the most accommodated group of people in the world." In that regard, we need go no further than the topic of this very thread to find an example. The removal of a monument and flag simply to appease the sensibilities of blacks is an example of this accommodation to which I refer.

Just for fun, I listed a smattering of the myriad of black-centric organizations and groups. I provided links in case you want a good laugh.Quite hilarious. And of course, there are more. I could continue to list links to other such black-centric organizations and groups. You can do your own research, but I'm sure you get the point. These links are included not only for their comedic value but also to demonstrate just how pervasive these accommodations go into every reach of society. Of course, I could get into such things as diversity quotas, the flotilla of affirmative action programs, Orwellian hate speech & hate crime laws, inclusion programs, race-conscious policies in college admissions and corporate hiring, black owned business grants and loans, Evergreen State College, the dumbing down of civil servant tests, so-called "disadvantage" programs, endless disguised subsidies (see "disadvantaged"), African American Studies, Black history month, so-called fair housing laws, EEOC, "social justice" initiatives, block busting, bussing, OJ Simpson, and on and on and on. But the point is proven. Blacks in the US are indeed the most accommodated group of people in the world.
This is exactly the sort of stuff I was saying didn't matter at all. Where's the data that blacks have higher incomes, get employed at disproportionately higher rates, get acquitted of crimes more often, etc.? This is like saying "the existence of a club for expats from Montenegro proves they're the most powerful country in the world".
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