U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > St. Louis
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-24-2017, 02:23 AM
 
3,158 posts, read 3,364,264 times
Reputation: 1433

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by RisingAurvandil View Post
Because we don't memorialize the flag of any other country with which we've waged war.

I personally don't care if it stays. It doesn't affect me.

However, some elements of the Confederate message are not admirable in modern times. You don't see Germans memorializing the Third Reich.



That's ridiculous. Most state flags are essentially meaningless, being created long after the war. We fly the American flag because, surprise, we are all Americans.

1. It affects you more than you realize.

2. Some elements of Germany's message in WW I were not admirable. We "won" and punished them with over-bearing retributions. We later had WW II.

3. And leave it out in all kinds of damaging weather, night and day. Time was -- but that's another topic. I'll drop it and say this: We also honor and fly flags of other countries here. Down near West County Center, there is an insurance company that is owned by a Canadian company. Whenever the CEOs or owners come to St Louis, the Canadian flag is flown. And, of course, all embassies are allowed to fly their own flags. Gracious! We even fly the flags of sports teams.

Pity the poor people who are not able to look at both sides of an issue without becoming prejudicial.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-24-2017, 07:51 AM
 
3,713 posts, read 2,687,347 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
2. Some elements of Germany's message in WW I were not admirable. We "won" and punished them with over-bearing retributions. We later had WW II.
On the other hand, the US didn't punish the former Confederate states enough, and you had Jim Crow laws, private prisons, Lost Cause, KKK, and the Neo-Confederate Republican party. So, there's risks both ways.

The Confederacy was founded entirely on defending white supremacy and black enslavement, let's not honor them with statues.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 08:10 AM
 
6,057 posts, read 6,907,734 times
Reputation: 4751
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankmiller View Post
on the other hand, the us didn't punish the former confederate states enough, and you had jim crow laws, private prisons, lost cause, kkk, and the neo-confederate republican party. So, there's risks both ways.

The confederacy was founded entirely on defending white supremacy and black enslavement, let's not honor them with statues.
right!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 12:27 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,196,831 times
Reputation: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
On the other hand, the US didn't punish the former Confederate states enough, and you had Jim Crow laws, private prisons, Lost Cause, KKK, and the Neo-Confederate Republican party. So, there's risks both ways.

The Confederacy was founded entirely on defending white supremacy and black enslavement, let's not honor them with statues.
They were punished pretty bad. Missouri was devastated by the war and at the state level suffered pretty severe reconstruction until 1876 when that stupid Drake Constitution was tossed and the southern democrat faction got back into power in Missouri who were deposed during the civil war.

After that. most of Missouri governors up until the early 1930s were democrats with many of them being born in KY, TN.

Southern Missouri people claim is racist, especially the Ozarks because of the Klan activity and such but that's BS.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 12:36 PM
 
Location: STL area
1,715 posts, read 834,262 times
Reputation: 3327
A museum is a better place for it. Remember negative history so that you don't repeat it. Don't celebrate and commemorate it.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Edinburgh,Scotland
380 posts, read 228,260 times
Reputation: 945
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." ― George Orwell, 1984[/quote]

Sound familiar?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,309 posts, read 5,985,321 times
Reputation: 4350
Krewson has vowed to have a plan to remove it in 30 days:

As controversy builds over Confederate Memorial, Krewson vows removal plan within three weeks | Political Fix | stltoday.com

Too bad the city doesn't want to pay for it:


"Both Krewson and her predecessor, former Mayor Francis Slay, have said the statue should be moved, but the cost of moving the 40-ton structure has exacerbated the political arguments around it — especially since there seems to be little appetite for discussing any use of city money to do it."

If it's that important, better find the money and get it done.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 12:55 PM
 
3,158 posts, read 3,364,264 times
Reputation: 1433
Quote:
Originally Posted by FickleManHYPEWFDSS View Post
Are you saying that the rebels did not write their own history after the war? Of course they did.

Traitors who fought for the slave power should not be memorialized.
I am sure they did. No doubt about it. What I am trying to say - perhaps clumsily - is that we need to write history so the reader knows the entire story, not just one side. It will still be slanted but fully exposed. There is a new style of written history around now. It is called Social History. There's much more to it than this type of thing but it's goal is to always reveal everything from every angle.

I am not trying to defend the South. I am saying don't destroy it by getting rid of its memorials. Let it save its pride and move on to something better. And every time I type all this our record with the Native Americans keeps popping in my head.

Best stop here. Just appreciated getting to say my piece.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 01:38 PM
 
3,158 posts, read 3,364,264 times
Reputation: 1433
Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?

As for quotes, there was a senator - forgive me for not going into the other room to recall his name - who said "My country right or wrong - if right, to be kept right; if wrong, to be set right".

We are a better nation than we were 200 years ago and we will, with any success, be a still better nation 200 years from now. One way to get better is to learn what we did wrong. But carrying vengeful grudges and all that entails will not help. We cannot expect improvement if we keep harping on past sins. Even our memorials are reminders of both our rights and our wrongs.

And that is enough - if not too much - from me. I'm off. Carry on.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2017, 03:31 PM
 
3,713 posts, read 2,687,347 times
Reputation: 2952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?
The war did in fact start over slavery. More specifically, the right of states to institute slavery (but not the right of other states to free slaves within their borders, a practice which greatly antagonized the South at various times before the war).

Quote:
For example, in its declaration of secession, Mississippi explained, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." In its declaration of secession, South Carolina actually comes out against the rights of states to make their own laws — at least when those laws conflict with slaveholding. "In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals," the document reads. The right of transit, Loewen said, was the right of slaveholders to bring their slaves along with them on trips to non-slaveholding states.

In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."
6 Civil War Myths, Busted
Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Missouri > St. Louis

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top