Interesting growth.......

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by proulxfamily

Desire is great. Leisure time is great too. We all have desires and want more time... having a college degree doesn't entitle someone to the lifestyle, income and time off they want. .

No one says it does but if you invest in improving your skill sets through some form of additional education you increase your chances of obtaining a job in your desired area. And if that lifestyle includes more perks than more power to them.

Further, having taken out loans for that degree is no one's problem but their own. That investment into an education should be taken as exactly that... an investment. It can pay off or it might not. Too often, people have counted on investing in post-secondary education as a sure thing. It's not. It IS just an investment. And if it doesn't pay off, other arrangements need to be made. .

Nobody is saying it's another persons problem but they want to take care of their obligation. Most go to additional schooling because that is required to get into their fields whether it's being a machinist, mechanic, accountant or a hair stylist. And yes for those that trained in an area they would like to find a job in their field not settle as a burger flipper for the rest of their life.

Pay shouldn't be determined by the amount of debt (tuition or otherwise) a potential employee has amassed. Pay should be determined by market demand..

Pay is not determined by your debt but by the qualifications you bring/meet with the job your applying for. As I said before if your investing in more schooling then ensure you come out with "marketable skills". Some professions are known to be lower paying and those that go into them after school know that

People can come and go as they please, with no complaint from me, to find a job in the area that needs them. If the job they want isn't here, by all means, please go elsewhere to find it. .

And thats was what the poster was saying

And those with no degree and no debt but who have all the skills DO put in less work??.

No but if they haven't secured a job they are probally having to look much farther to find a job for their skills that can provide them a living wage & benefits. Thats why so many are having to return to school to change their skills so they can be more marketable

I never said that it's possible in all fields, for that very reason. But more and more, it is shifting that way. In days gone by, yes- you could find a job via apprenticeship fairly easily. In more recent times, it was unlikely or very difficult. Presently, it's much more of a possibility. The market seems to be trending toward actual knowledge and experience, no matter how someone came by it. I'm glad for that. When I applied for a job in sales, fresh out of college, I was denied from literally dozens of positions for which I truly believe I would have been a great fit. I would have made them money. I didn't apply for any position in which I hadn't already researched the company, its typical clients and sales style and come up with a way to market and sell their product for them. I have the personality for sales, with no ego involved... I just have it. That didn't matter. Why was I denied? Because I didn't have a Master's in *anything.* It didn't even matter what that Master's was in, I was told... it was simply a prerequisite to the position. I was told that I would be hired as soon as I had a Master's degree.
That's happening far less frequently, now. And that? Is a Very Good Thing.

I'm glad you found what you like and were able to make a career of it. I remember coming out of school and if I had considered becoming a plumber or electrician I needed an apprentise card from the union. But without a dad and 6 uncles in the union I couldn't get one. Hopefully those days are over. Aside from the challenged job market for kids coming out of any school their is the competition from all the older workers also looking for jobs with experience and skills on their side. The only advantage kids have is being new they cost less to hire.

What graduates are complaining about is the lack of job opportunities for those coming out of school. Like your dad did they will probally leave the area and will maybe return later in their lives. Thats their choice.

[Becca8377]

I work in an industry that's very difficult to break into, especially for new graduates. I was very proactive and started sending my resume out 6 months BEFORE I graduated college. In my industry, you don't get to pick where you want to live - you go where the jobs are. It just so happened that my first job was in Hawaii and my second one brought me to Syracuse. I have several friends that recently graduated in my major that absolutely cannot find a job. While it's not ideal, they have to take any job to pay the bills - I have one friend with a college degree working 2 waitressing jobs. Other friends have moved back in with their parents to save money while working whatever job they can find. Like proulxfamily said, no one wants to do that, BUT you have to do whatever it takes to get by, even if that means swallowing your pride. Just my 2 cents...

[VA Yankee]

I agree Becca you do what you have to. But I also think those that invested in whatever area need to be flexable when looking for work because they may have to relocate like you did to work in their respective fields. On most of these boards I read where college grads (as an example) can not find living wage jobs in their desired area. On the VA boards I am always reading about people looking to move here, where are the jobs in xxxx field they ask. Most posters tell them to secure a job before moving but luckely our unemployment rates are going down so there are increasing opportunities.

[proulxfamily]

Originally Posted by VA Yankee

Pay is not determined by your debt but by the qualifications you bring/meet with the job your applying for.

What graduates are complaining about is the lack of job opportunities for those coming out of school. Like your dad did they will probally leave the area and will maybe return later in their lives. Thats their choice.

I think we pretty much agree entirely, then... except for the part in bold.

I don't think that pay should be determined by qualifications either... market demand sets the price. And that's assuming that the market demands more people with those qualifications. Having qualifications for a job doesn't entitle one to a position in that field at that pay. They WANT it, of course, but this has always been a changing market. People got comfortable in assuming a degree would give them the life they wanted. It was *everyone's* goal, to go to college and get a bachelor's. But that achievement was set in a time when not everyone did have a degree and so the demand was high... now it seems like everyone has a BA or BS in something. Low demand- it's now so base a degree of education that it seems to be what a high school education was 30-40 years ago. I've known some incredibly stupid people with a bachelor's, enough to where I wondered how.on.earth they made it through. No sense whatsoever, for them to make use of their degree, if a job wasn't essentially handed to or waiting for them. No life skills because their families filled in finances and made arrangements without teaching them to do it for themselves... never let them struggle on their own. And for many (maybe even most), that's not a problem... but for these no-sense people with the qualifications but little, if any, sense... it is and will continue to cause them to be a burden on those who actually have the ability to do their jobs WELL.

It used to be that every third person I knew was going for a psych degree... and at the time, it did appear that such an education would pay off. But that's the problem- too many people going for the same goal results in low demand for those people.

There's something beneficial, I think, in bringing back the idea that post-secondary education isn't for everyone... with no stigma attached. Our children are young still but I'm not expecting them all to go to college. I'm not investing in saving accounts that can only be used for college. That money is theirs when we, who have funded it, decide they need it. They won't even know it exists. And when they make sound decisions, whether it means they want to be a plumber, electrician, hairdresser, mechanic, doctor, engineer, construction worker, they'll find that money suddenly available to help them through, if needed. If they don't need it, it'll be a tidy amount for a downpayment. And a welcome surprise, I think.

I come from a large family... there are still 7 children at home. We've all had to work and pay for our own goals. That definitely has shaped what I think about entitlement. If you have everything it takes, great! If it doesn't pay off, yank up your sleeves and get working on something else. That's just the way life is. Anywhere.

/end extremely long tangent. lol

[VA Yankee]

Originally Posted by proulxfamily

I think we pretty much agree entirely, then... except for the part in bold.

We can't agree!...lol

too many people going for the same goal results in low demand for those people.

Concure, as I wrote come out with marketable skills. Getting a degree or training in xyz is great but if theirs no demand you just wasted your time/money.

There's something beneficial, I think, in bringing back the idea that post-secondary education isn't for everyone... with no stigma attached.

This is a big problem in public schools, going to college or some form of continuing education is the only line they know. If you graduate HS and go straight to work in whatever field they don't view it as a success.

Our children are young still but I'm not expecting them all to go to college. I'm not investing in saving accounts that can only be used for college. That money is theirs when we, who have funded it, decide they need it. They won't even know it exists. And when they make sound decisions, whether it means they want to be a plumber, electrician, hairdresser, mechanic, doctor, engineer, construction worker, they'll find that money suddenly available to help them through, if needed. If they don't need it, it'll be a tidy amount for a downpayment. And a welcome surprise, I think.

My girls are older but we had about the same thing. We would support whatever decision they made on their path after HS. I did require them though to either start college after HS or become employed full time. Because of my insurance from the Navy they would have lost their benefits if they took a year off. That is far more valuable then their self discovery...

Until next time I enjoyed the discussion...

[proulxfamily]

Oh definitely! lol - they need to be doing something *as* adults. Freedom has a price!