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Three cities on the "death list", Jacksonville, Orlando and Las Vegas, that I've always been "why"??
I was just in Jacksonville and Orlando a couple weeks ago. Jacksonville I can live with I just don't understand it. Orlando I hate so very much. I'd work in a Subway for MW in Syracuse if Orlando was my only choice. I can remember being in Orlando pre-Disney when it was the size of Utica, its grown abit since.
See a bunch of Texas cities near the top. Have never been to Texas. Looks like thats were the action is these days.
Three cities on the "death list", Jacksonville, Orlando and Las Vegas, that I've always been "why"??
I don't see Vegas as a death list city. I see them as getting back to normal after a huge economic bust. Imagine the number of people in Syracuse doubling and maybe tripling over the next 5 years and the city doing everything they can to keep up with the flood of people. then all of a sudden the people all leave. It is devastating, but that is what happened out there. They had to pull workers from other states just to keep up and when the work stopped, so did the jobs. Vegas went from rags to riches to rags in a very short time.
Its not that hard for me to imagine at all. Both Utica and Syracuse have roughly half the people I remember them having.
Speaking of people I went down to the city on St Patrick's day. Intellectually I knew the Earth had alot of people but getting to meet them all between Grand Central and Broadway was quite an experience. Was a pretty fun time but one I most likely won't do again.
I don't see Vegas as a death list city. I see them as getting back to normal after a huge economic bust. Imagine the number of people in Syracuse doubling and maybe tripling over the next 5 years and the city doing everything they can to keep up with the flood of people. then all of a sudden the people all leave. It is devastating, but that is what happened out there. They had to pull workers from other states just to keep up and when the work stopped, so did the jobs. Vegas went from rags to riches to rags in a very short time.
If Vegas does not diversify from gaming, it will be on a "death list". I used to work in Vegas during the boom. I said it then and will say it now, gaming is proliferating all over the country and globe. Vegas is not the center of gaming entertainment anymore. Mega casinos are being proposed all over the world, including one down in Miami. Also, there is a severe water problem in Vegas which will impact their economic growth.
Per the last census, Onondaga County and the Syracuse MSA area have increased their population. It has erased population losses from the 2000 census. As the economy continues to transition, I believe this trend will continue, esp. downtown.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 03-30-2012 at 10:49 AM..
Its not that hard for me to imagine at all. Both Utica and Syracuse have roughly half the people I remember them having
It is true that Utica and Syracuse have lost population within their respective cities limits, like many other northeastern cities. Many have moved to the suburbs or moved away (to be sure). Syracuse had a population of approximately 220,000 people in 1950. Per the last census, the city had a population of approximately 145,000. However, it was initially reported that the city lost 1.5% of its population, but that was changed to 1% when the census reported an error with neighboring Dewitt (which still gained population). One could argue that the recent stability in Syracuse's population is in part due to policies and investment that are encouraging people to move back into the city. Cities like Buffalo, Detroit, Flint, Pittsburgh, etc. lost -10.7%, -25%, -18%, -8.6%, respectively. Each one of those cities also lost population within their respective counties and MSA's. Per the 2010 census, Onondaga County gained approximately 9,000 people and the MSA gained approximately 12,000. The gains have erased population losses from the 2000 census. The population of the area is higher than it was in 1970 when manufacturing was king. It remains to be seen if recent trends continue going forward.
I cannot speak for Utica, but Syracuse has a lot of assets and resources that Utica does not have. Based on a friend of mine in Utica who used to work for the City there, the 2010 cenus showed the City of Utica gaining population from 58,000 to approximately 62,000. However, Oneida County and the MSA lost population. I believe that the Utica area is becoming more and more dependent on the Syracuse MSA for goods, services, health and transportation. I think a consolidated msa (CMSA) with Utica/Rome is something to consider.
Btw, where can I find this "death list" of cities you mentioned? I would like to look at it, thanks.
Last edited by urbanplanner; 03-30-2012 at 11:07 AM..
Due to a turn of events I am compelled to stay in NY. With no exit strategy. Part of this deal is I'm not gonna keep living in the Gaza Strip, er I mean in Oneida. As we are both country people we want to move back but the exodus out of Utica and Syracuse have driven prices of country living waaaaaaaaay beyond our reach.
So we been spending time looking in both Utica and Syracuse. I'm in one or both several times a week. And pretty much all the suburbs of both. Utica has everything Syracuse does and both lack many things. Rochester actually has everything and I'd love to live there but the commute would suck.
Like all high tax areas NY has a strong black market. Or maybe grey market would be closer. Its easier for me to tap into that market in Syracuse. I'm sure its in Utica just not as open as Syracuse. Not talking illegal or stolen stuff BTW, just stuff Albany doesn't need to know about. So thats a plus for Syracuse.
Other then that Utica has pretty much the same options. Well, no Sams Club.
Utica has a very user friendly road system. Utica has a much more active downtown. I like seeing people. Utica has everything from lawyers to gangbangers out and about. Its a small (tiny!!!) urban feel. DT Syracuse is a ghost town. People think I'm crazy spending so much time there. Say I'm gonna get shot. Who would pull the trigger??
Syracuse was called here recently a "pocket city". I never heard that term but soon as I did it clicked. As we drive around we find a nice area and whammo it goes to horrifying ghetto. I freakin hate that. Utica also has some pretty bad ghetto but it just seems to be more contained.
Got it, thanks. I thought there was some new city "death list" survey out there, its from the same Brookings Institute survey (worst and best performing cities in America). It is interesting that many of the sun-belt cities that exploded during the boom are now on negative lists, kind of a boom bust. To be fair, Syracuse should not get complacent or is out of the woods. Thanks again!
If Vegas does not diversify from gaming, it will be on a "death list". I used to work in Vegas during the boom. I said it then and will say it now, gaming is proliferating all over the country and globe. Vegas is not the center of gaming entertainment anymore. Mega casinos are being proposed all over the world, including one down in Miami. Also, there is a severe water problem in Vegas which will impact their economic growth.
Zappos is setting up shop in Vegas and I think they are holding out hope that other manufacturing jobs will follow.
While Vegas does survive on gaming, I don't think single casinos will cause too much damage. Vegas is a destination with so much more than gaming. Even Atlantic City couldn't hold a torch to all that Vegas offers. Gaming can not support a boom, but I don't think Vegas was ever supposed to get as big as it did.
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