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In a way, this may be good thing and hopefully, this could allow the Inner Harbor to develop in a way that it can also be a mixed use destination that bridges the gap between DestinyUSA and Franklin Square/Downtown.
I agree. I don't think a medium sized market like Syracuse could support all of the retail that was planned if the project expanded to three phrases without causing significant upheaval at other shopping centers throughout the region. One could argue, Shoppingtown and Great Northern have continued to feel the impact as have other shopping centers. Congel's 15 year charade and untold machinations involving the Carousel Center expansion likely resulted in Wilmorite deciding not to invest in redeveloping Shoppingtown and the subsquent calculation by Macerich to let both properties rot. Not suprisingly, the new slumlord of Shoppingtown has no plans for the mall and just purchased a similiar mall in suburban Baltimore. Some are speculating the new owner has plans to resell the mall it purchased for a bargain basement price in Maryland in homes of generating a slight profit.
The fact that Syracuse was the last major upstate market to land a Kohl's and Target, gives credence to the widespread theory that major retailers were on the sidelines looking to enter the Syracuse market but were waiting for the Carousel expansion. After nearly a decade some retailers grew frustrated and opened stores in CNY. The fact that it took Syracuse so long to land a P.F Chang's is not surprising either. Both P.F Changs and Cheesecake Factory were actively scouting sites in the eastern suburbs for many years, as those communities more accurately reflect the chain's preferred demographics than does Carousel Center. There are many medium sized metro areas with even weaker demographics like Toledo and Jackson, MS that already have both restaurants and several other "upscale" chains like Fresh Market and Anthropologie.
The tenants announced so far at Carousel have been underwhelming at best and horrible at worst. Poaching two big box retailers that were anchor tenants at two suburban shopping centers, doesn't follow the project's objective of attracting retailers new to CNY. Both stores, Burlington Coat Factory and Dicks Sporting Goods will collectively occupy at least 170,000 at Carousel Center. According to Post-Standard Columnist Bob Niedt, Dicks will close its store at Fairmount Fair. While it hasn't been confirmed that Burlington will do the same in Cicero, the close proximity to Carousel Center makes such a decision very likely.
Aside from a couple of restaurants and an Imax, I can't think of any retailer that Congel attracted to Carousel that would be considered destination worthy or desirable by almost anyone. Most of the outlets announced already have stores at nearby Waterloo premium outlets or Niagara Falls and have merchandise that despite being only slightly lower priced is generally of lesser quality than items found in full-line stores. For a 30 year PILOT, Congel essentially gave Syracuse bunch of junky outlets, a redneck bar, a bowling alley, a go-cart track, and a Burlington Coat Factory.
If we could only switch the tenants at the Eastview Mall in Victor with Carousel, I would be happy. Wimot must be thrilled that the feared Carousel Center expansion turned into a glorified outlet center and will pose no competition with the malls in Rochester or Buffalo. I'm also wondering if the decision to curtail additional expansion, aside from basic economics, is to enable Congel's son Scott to pursue his scheme of redeveloping a vacant mall in Irondequoit, an aging inner ring suburb of Rochester. Scott Congel received an attractive tax deal from the town of Irondequoit and Monroe County. He also promised upscale stores and big destination retailers. Perhaps Congel is filling Carousel with junk tenants to protect Scott's aspirations of turning his vacant mall in suburban Rochester into a big regional destination. Such a theory is probably not plausable as the garbage tenants announced for Carousel were probably the only interested retailers, however such a nefarious scheme wouldn't suprise me, particuarly given Congel's old age and his son's ambitions.
I would have been satisified if Congel filled the expansion with just an aquarium, REI, LL Bean and Nordstrom.
Last edited by RollsRoyce; 06-06-2012 at 02:31 PM..
Aside from a couple of restaurants and an Imax, I can't think of any retailer that Congel attracted to Carousel that would be considered destination worthy or desirable by almost anyone. Most of the outlets announced already have stores at nearby Waterloo premium outlets or Niagara Falls and have merchandise that despite being only slightly lower priced is generally of lesser quality than items found in full-line stores. For a 30 year PILOT, Congel essentially gave Syracuse bunch of junky outlets, a redneck bar, a bowling alley, a go-cart track, and a Burlington Coat Factory.
I have to agree with Rolls. Pyramid attempted to build DestinyUSA at Crossgates Mall in Guilderland several years ago after an expansion on the mall. Guilderland said no way. The town didn't want it. The residents didn't want it. I can now say I'm very happy it died there. Guilderland didn't Pyramid as many taxes breaks and they certainly wouldn't have gone without property taxes for 30 years. That was just a dumb offer. Whoever gave that away should be smacked.
I haven't been to Carousel for like a year and a half. And even then I was disappointed. It was just another mall. They had already started renaming and redecorating. Seemed like a lot of money spent on goofy signs instead of on getting better tenants.
Why does the world need more outlet stores? The stores themselves have said they are not selling the same merchandise they sell in regular retailers like Macy's. The products are definitely subpar. There's a reason the prices are a little lower. And I do mean a little lower especially when you factor in the quality isn't Ralph Lauren in Macy's.
So what exactly did Carousel get with this incredible transformation into DestinyUSA? And how exactly is this a destination for anyone outside of the area. Yes, people will shop while on vacation. When it's raining out, there isn't much else to do when you're out of town. Sitting in a hotel gets real boring after a little while.
I was really hoping this would pan out and have some serious great things. Some restaurants that already exist 2 hours away isn't going to drag anyone from Rochester or Albany to Syracuse for some shopping.
Now, if they got things like Ikea (which wouldn't happen since they require 2 million people within a small radius), a Container Store, Archiver's, even and Orvis shop (yes, I know Bass Pro Shop is in Auburn), Cabela's, LL Bean (Albany has one - the first in NY), a small Dean & Deluca like Charlotte has, Rain Forst Cafe, Famous Dave's BBQ, Steak & Shake, American Girl, Crate & Barrel, a Lego Store, Anthropologie, Lush, a Ripley's aquarium or museum, Dave & Busters, an Aquarium restaurant (Aquarium Restaurants), something that isn't in every mall......how many Auntie Ann's and Claire's does the world need? Many of those retailers/restaurants go into malls that Simon runs. They do have some really nice malls. In general, I hate malls so for me to say they're pretty decent means something. I've been to Opry Mills (before the massive flood) and Concord Mills numerous times. Always something interesting in those two places. Maybe Pyramid should have called me and I could have given them a list of places people would be interested in.
Hopefully, some of the ideas that were in the plans over the years will come to life. An aquarium would be a fabulous addition to Syracuse! There's already a zoo. Albany doesn't have either which does surprise me. Jazzing up the harbor and making it family friendly would go a long way. Outdoor dining would be a nice thing. Yes, I do realize outdoor dining wouldn't be able to be used year round, but it a nice thing to do and not many places offer it these days. And being family friendly would bring people downtown. People want safe, alcohol free things for their kids. Hard to find that often times.
An outdoor - or even indoor - waterpark would also be a fabulous feature instead of another section of mall. That would be family friendly, bring tourists and locals, and it's not something that exists everywhere unlike shoe stores.
Did anyone view the press conference by Mayor Miner on syracuse.com? You could "feel" the vindication in her comments below the surface.
She certainly didn't look like she was buying the August opening. She looks like she wants to smack a few heads. Can't say I blame her at all. She is definitely in between a rock and a hard place. I just would love to been a fly on the wall during the negotiations of 30 years of no taxes. Seriously, who makes this stuff up?
ss20ts, the things you mentioned would be great suggestions for retail and offerings in between Carousel/Destiny and Franklin Square/Downtown. I hope COR is reading this thread, because this could really put the ball in their court and could plan something the right way. I'd love to see an Aquarium with the Aquarium Restaurant next door, along with revamping more former factories/warehouses for housing or retail. I'd even like to see a bus route that connected the Aquarium with the MOST and the International Mask/Puppet Museum in Little Italy, with a discount for families if they patronize 2 of the three establishments(perhaps before a certain time). Perhaps an amphitheatre and courts(Basketball, Tennis, Volleyball, etc.) would be nice too. Maybe even a ferry from Onondaga Lake Park in Liverpool to the Inner Harbor could work on a seasonal basis too.
Many of you are still forgetting that the bottom floor of Bon ton is vacant as well as the old ultimate electronics. Also, congel may have backed out of a hotel/ casino deal simply because the Rochester developer plans on building a racino in the Syracuse market. Maybe now he will change it to destiny USA instead of the airport area.
The fact that it took Syracuse so long to land a P.F Chang's is not surprising either. Both P.F Changs and Cheesecake Factory were actively scouting sites in the eastern suburbs for many years, as those communities more accurately reflect the chain's preferred demographics than does Carousel Center. There are many medium sized metro areas with even weaker demographics like Toledo and Jackson, MS that already have both restaurants and several other "upscale" chains like Fresh Market and Anthropologie.
Is there a PF Changs in the Syracuse area? I had been looking for one but the closest I saw on their website is in Rochester.
Is there a PF Changs in the Syracuse area? I had been looking for one but the closest I saw on their website is in Rochester.
Martin,
PF Changs will be joining the lineup of new tenants at the Carousel Mall in Syracuse either late this year or next year. Until then, the closest ones are at the Eastview Mall in the Rochester suburb of Victor and Colonie Center in Colonie, just outside Albany.
The post standard had a piece last night that summed up the whole DestinyUSA disaster nicely. Destiny USA's untaxed anti-climax: After 13 years, it is what it is
The whole project is an embarrassment to Syracuse. I was not in the area when the planning was ongoing, but I have no idea why anyone would think that this project would ever come to fruition. Maybe I'm just a product of this economic downturn, as for most of my adult life we have been in a recession/recovery, but the whole idea of a megamall "saving" Syracuse is laughable. I'm happy that its dead and that now maybe the city will focus more on reviving downtown and the inner harbor to make this city a great place to live. It would be great if the city would be collecting the near twenty million dollars in tax revenue from the mall too, as that would go incredibly far to help the city and the schools.
Oh and Syracuse managed to make it into the Atlantic magazines cities section.... Dead Pipe Dream of the Day: Syracuse's 'Destiny USA'
Maybe even a ferry from Onondaga Lake Park in Liverpool to the Inner Harbor could work on a seasonal basis too.
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